E flat / Alternate Tunings + Legacy w/DFB = Nightmare?

[nicosema]

I recently bought a G&L Legacy and I totally love it. I'm still 'discovering' the instrument, I've just got it a week ago. The action is a bit high on frets 12 and above, but still very playable and confortable. No setup has been made to the guitar yet. It stays PERFECTLY in tune (A-440), even when doing heavy tremolo bar stuff.

However, as I'd like to play some Vaughn songs, and also some E-flat things, I tried to tune the guitar to E-flat just to watch the strings go sharp (sometimes, a lot sharp) after a second fine tuning check. No matter how many times I retry the sequence ( 1-retune, 2-fine tune), I experience the same issue over and over, meaning I couldn't even start to play in E-flat tuning yet. The same happens to me with "less drastic" alternate tunings, like Drop D, for instance, which in theory wouldn't change string tension so much as to keep the instrument out of tune.

What I'd want to know if this is normal behaviour regarding the standard dual fulcrum bridge, or if it's a setup issue. I didn't know about the DFB until I knew the G&L, so I used google to know about it. Still I'm not clear about this issue.

Did anybody experience similar problems? Any help would be appreciated, specially before I send the guitar to a tech, because I'm very happy with the instrument performance (always speaking about A-440 tuning). I really wouldn't want to modify the instrument and/or bridge; a friend of mine suggested lowering the bridge, but I feel I need more info before making a decision.

Thanks in advance!


Nico

[sirmyghin]

You are dealing with a floating tremolo. You need to set them up specifically for your desired tuning if you want them to work. This involves 'levelling' the tremolo by adjusting the spring claw in the back cavity while trying to get to a new tuning. I would say this is definitely an inexperience issue, but I recommend you learn to solve htis problem on your own without a tech, it will pay off in the long run.

Look up some tutorials only about setting up floating tremolos, they are all pretty much identical with some slightly different points (floyds you clip the ball ends and have the double locking, etc). The only way to get lots of tunings out of a guitar with a floating bridge is to set it up as dive only, or to block the tremolo entirely.

[blargfromouterspace]

Sirmy is right - floating trem's aren't your friend when it comes to experimenting with tunings. That going sharp is because of the spring tension, and once that get's pulled back the action will change, as will the feel of the trem. It will take you a bit of time to work it out just right but you can't fudge it up so bad that it can't be put right, so just give it a go.

Alternatively you could just play the SRV stuff in standard tuning - you can still play in E flat on a guitar in standard tuning

[nicosema]

Thanks for the reply, guys. I'll search the net and see what I can find.

sirmyghin said: "The only way to get lots of tunings out of a guitar with a floating bridge is to set it up as dive only, or to block the tremolo entirely."

English is not my native language, but I suspect "dive only" would mean the tremolo set up for bringing notes down in pitch, not up, is that right?

Asumming I'm correct in the thought above, could you please tell me:

1) is it possible to set the G&L Legacy standard dual fulcrum bridge that way?
2) if so, would that mean resignating some of the nice keep-in-tune state the guitar has right now?

I'd be glad if my G&L guitar would keep in tune as well as it does right now, on any tuning. Doesn't matter to lose the floating feature.

blargfromouterspace, you're right about playing in standard tuning alternatively. With SRV stuff there's no problem, my intention is to set the guitar up so I could use any tuning that the situation demands (i plan to record with this amazing sounding legacy too). Drop D is a fairly used tuning too...still didn't try to tune the guitar for playing "The Raing Song" from Zeppelin

Thanks again!


EDIT: I wouldn't want to block the tremolo entirely, diving is nice As I wrote before, I don't mind trying to do it myself but I want to know, in your experience, what would be the gain/loss relation with that bridge mod we are talking about.

[blargfromouterspace]

....Drop D is a fairly used tuning too...still didn't try to tune the guitar for playing "The Raing Song" from Zeppelin
.

I'm going to sound like a bit of a smart arse, but I play 'The Rain Song' in standard tuning. It's easy, especially when compared to completely re-tuning your guitar. If you want the chord shapes send me a PM.

[sirmyghin]

Thanks for the reply, guys. I'll search the net and see what I can find.

sirmyghin said: "The only way to get lots of tunings out of a guitar with a floating bridge is to set it up as dive only, or to block the tremolo entirely."

English is not my native language, but I suspect "dive only" would mean the tremolo set up for bringing notes down in pitch, not up, is that right?

That is correct, not sure how well it would intonate as such though, I do not own one.

[nicosema]

Thanks for the interest, guys.

Elwood has kindly offered me some pictures of a G&L Legacy with the bridge set up to only dive. That's the exact setup that I'm looking for. More whammy resistance, bend strings without detuning others, easier string changing and alternate tunings at hand. Gonna set my guitar up that way with the help of a friend of mine. Luckily, it relies mostly in adjusting spring tension, no need to modify the instrument permanently like changing the bridge, drilling, etc.
I'm interested in alternate tunings because they make the guitar resonate different, although most of the time I'll be in standard tuning.
I didn't try to play The Rain Song, what I meant with that is that it would have been very hard if i kept trying to tune my guitar differently without knowing that I had to block the bridge or set it to dive. The tuning for that song is wicked! Although it could be played in standard too, as it was said above.
Thanks!

[Boogie Bill]

The key to dong drop and flat tunings is to have a separate guitar dedicated solely to that tuning. And remember, a big part of SRV's tone in those flat tuning is that he used really heavy strings--which you probably wouldn't want to use in standard tuning.

Same thing goes for using a slide. Many players will use a separate guitar with a slightly higher action and stiffer strings for their slide work. Of course, a lot of guys are good with just one guitar for slide a regular playing...but whn I think about it, most of them use a hardtail guitar.

That's why so many of the big-name guitar players have these great guitar collections. They find a guitar that might do only ONE thing, but that one thing is something that it does very well and adds "color" to their recordings.

Recording is a whole different world than live performance. In the studio, you can take the time (if you have the money!) to use the right guitar for each track. You don't need an amp with switching between five channels. You're going to set up one amp like a Fender Deluxe Reverb for this rhythm track with a nice clean tone. You're going to use a high-strung ("Nashville tuning") acoustic guitar to double track that part for "shimmer" and "depth". If you need some crunch rhythm, you'll be plugging into a Marshall JTM 45 with a 412 loaded with Greenbacks to get that Malcom Young KRANG. And when it comes time to solo, you'll add another track, recorded on a little tweed Champ or Deluxe turned up to 12 for a screaming lead tone that will sound huge. One piece of gear won't do all the things you need to do in the studio. And you won't be doing it all on one track.

Oh, and I seriously doubt that Page did the rain song on a guitar with a vibrato.

Bottom line, one good amp with channel switching can work very well in live situations. I have six Mesa Boogie amps, in various sizes and configurations. I often gig with as many as five guitars; and sometimes as many as seven--even though a Legacy is my main guitar.

Don't expect one guitar to do it all.

Good luck!

Bill

[sirmyghin]

Nice knowing you Bill, after one of the wive's reports to yours on this one you are done

I agree with you completely.

[nicosema]

I agree, too. Also I agree in that, ideally, if a guitar is to be played in E-flat, for instance, it must be set up to work optimally in that tuning.

I'd really love to have more than one guitar for playing usual and ocasional stuff, unfortunately I'll have to wait for a second axe. Today it's been 10 days since I became the proud owner of very nice tobacco sunburst G&L Legacy.

I do like it very much! It stays very well in tune, although action is a bit high. This will be adressed shortly with a set up that accomodates my needs. I'll be playing standard tuning most of the time. Although I'd ocassionally want to switch to E-flat, Drop D, or Open G for Keith Richards riffing. Also I want more whammy resistance in the tremolo bar.

Changing the bridge is not an option, I'm very happy with it. I read about a device called Tremol-no that allows to set a floating bridge as dive only, as floyd, or as a hardtail. Unfortunately, I also read that it would involve some drilling to install in a G&L Legacy. I don't want to modify the guitar permanently like that, by no means.

Bottom line: I want the versatility of different tunings, although I know the ideal solution would be another guitar for that. From what I read in this forum, I derive that I could set up my Legacy to work the way I described earlier. Oh, and I forgot to mention, the bend string + detune others issue is giving me a hard time to get around.

Yeah, the Legacy is my first GOOD guitar so far. When I tested it out, I didn't come across these issues. All I felt was atraction! The previous owner handed the guitar right after it was taken out of its case, and I tested it for 25 minutes. When I left the place, I realised I didn't get to test the tuners, there was no need Even with whammy stuff and all. Also, at that moment I knew nothing about floating bridge issues. However I would have bought the Legacy anyway, it was the strat I liked the most on that budget.

Luckilly I read on the forum and the net that the bridge can be set up to only dive and that it would address the above mentioned behaviours (preferrably not wanted, for me) without any drilling, just adjusting spring tension and maybe adding some to make a total of 5 springs. Any experience, or source of information on this subject will be apreciatted. Until then I'll playing the guitar as it is right now because it's excellent too