Tasty Tone Tuesday

[sickbutnottired]

Thanks to everyone who participated in our discussion yesterday on quality gear! Nothing cures lunch reporter stage-fright like participation! Going out to lunch today, will update on that after it happens.

A couple things that were interesting, to me anyway, during the the discussion on quality gear. The only amp manufacturer mentioned as a real quality part of peoples gear collection was Mesa Engineering. I currently only have Fender Amps, well and a kick-ass Pig Nose practice amp that is lite, but I don't count it. Like a majority of posters, I didn't mention the Fender Amps that I play, because I basically feel like I put up with my amps because they sound pretty darn good—but they are a pain in my rear.

It seems like I am always having to do something to my Fenders. Mine are all Silverfaces; which are, of course, a low-water mark for FMIC amp quality. In addition they are old (about my age). So of course tubes are a maintenance item. Filter Caps go bad. Input Jacks. We could go on and on, It seems like every component in one of these can go bad. One of my Deluxe Reverbs is just behaving badly, I don't know what the heck is wrong with it—I am sure it can be fixed. The bottom line is I love to tinker. But I want to spend most of my time tinkering with music! These are not cool upgrades or mods, it's just staying in business! I am tired of my multi-meter and solder iron!

So my non-G&L question for the day is for all you tube amp players out there. (And there are a bunch of you I see from the thread in the G&L Music Discussion thread about amps).
Do you love your amp(s)? Or is it like that crazy ex or 'sometime to be ex', you gotta have it; but man is it painful!

Maybe take a sec and let us know what you play, and how you use your amp. Do you gig it, record it? How? How much?

G&L Question for the Day -
I got my G&L question for the day from answers from yesterdays questions. A couple of folks mentioned the MFD design, but I thought bassman said it best. I paraphrase “they [bases] are pretty and that's great, but its the pickups!” Leo, George, and Dale where one great group. They made 3 commercially viable, quality musical equipment companies, and while they were involved the quality and innovation from these companies was great. I am sure on this we all agree. BUT, of all the innovations that came out of these companies, which is the MOST critical to your sound and/or enjoyment of music today? Take the Poll!

The reality is, you can probably tell our answers by what guitars we play the most. Have a great day!

[standards guy]

I have always preferred AlNiCo magnets in pickups and speakers because I've had experiences with ceramic's sound that I thought had a bit of harsh edge to it, for my ears. But I had an old MIJ Squire Strat once and with compression to round off the rough edges, and I thought it worked pretty well through my old long gone BF Showman.

But the MFD's on my S500 sound just great. I like the extra bass (and the ability to turn the bass down at the guitar).

A long time ago I had (I think an '88) ASSAT with the big MFD's, and had to admit they were great. But that guitar didn't have the high end I thought a tele should have (alder body and rosewood board too). More than P-90's though.
Eventually I went off on another lap around the track of looking for more traditional Tele sounds back then.

Nowadays I want the most versatile guitar I can get, and the S500 just works great for me.

A close second is the trem. I'll leave that for another thread.

Edit:
I played small, medium, and large, tube amps exclusively (as a snob) for decades. But in those decades SS has come a long ways, especially since I have gotten a lot "cleaner" in my sound. I loved my ol' Showman, and the Mesa/Boogies I've had, and the Tweed clones, have all had their day. I still love their sounds. But I am no longer willing to put up with the cheap tubes, or pay for the good ones, just for a bit of nuance in my sound. When I wanted a broad area of crunch from mild to wild, with just using the guitar volume, well, nothing but a tweed amp ever did that for me. I hate switchable amps because in a recording or live band sound suddenly there's this new sound that wasn't there before. It's like having a sax player suddenly show up half way through a song, like he phoned it in. Just my $0.02...

[zombywoof]

Love is not the word I associate with amps (although I would with guitars). Then again, I ain't obsessed about chasing some "Holy Grail" tone generated by some Rock God somewhere at some point in time. When it comes to amps, first, I don't need no stinkin' master volume knob. I like 'em to put a clean and warm sound and one on which it is easy to dial in a goodly amount of mid-range growl. A lttle rawness don't hurt either.

My favorite rig at the moment - I done been Valco-ized.



G&L Guitars. Don't really have a clue what it is about them. Maybe it is the blending of tradition and innovation. I also think they are a heck of alot of guitar for the money. But when it comes down to it, while yeah, you can get custom doodads and colors and sometimes even a unique pickup arrangement, what I respect about G&L is they hold to the philosphy to give you the best they can on any off the shelf guitar.

[Dave_P]

Hey Jeremy, I've always leaned towards Fender amps too, though I hadn't acquired anything vintage until last year.
Currently I have a '66 blackface Bandmaster that I have/do gig with, the Vibrato recently quit on me, haven't gotten around to fixing it just yet, it also could probably use a tune up. I really like the way it sounds, it's almost "there" but not quite. Like most, I'm always looking. I've had my eye on a blackface Tremolux lately, not much different from what I have, similar circuit (AB763 vs. AA763), a few different component values and a tube rectifier rather than solid state. It's a little lower wattage, a bit less headroom and that's just what I'm looking for. I haven't played through any Mesa's but with all the recommendations maybe I should ?!

As for the G&L question, I'm not sure which is the most critical to my sound/enjoyment. I do love the MFD pickups, but there are AlNiCo pickups I love as well for different reasons. I'm going to go with portable amps, because without them I couldn't hear how great those MFD's sound

Lunch today was a roast beef sandwich on multi-grain bread with cheddar, mushrooms, roasted red pepper and onions...wow that sounds better than it was I assembled it in the cafeteria at work with a toaster and microwave, trying to make the best of cold cut day

-Dave

[sirmyghin]

As far as tube amps go, I enjoy mine thoroughly. I do not currently play out, but it is a Mesa, it would be no issue. I use it for recording, but recording has been non existant. I have been too focused on exercises and doing my research to take the time to record anything. I use it about 2 hours a day. I bought it new.. you can speculate on the price all you like.

What sets G&L apart is the pickups, by and large. They are some of the best stock pickups, and I haven't even considerred swapping them (unlike my carvins which are waiting on a swap to arrive). There are plenty of quality guitars with good craftsmanship for a excellent price point if you know where to look (not in stores albeit), so G&L has to stand on their pickups to distinguish them.

[vinnyk]

I think also, that it is the pick-ups that seperate G&L's from other brands.
I can only comment on the pre-BBE stuff, as that is all I have ever tried.
On yesterdays amp question, one more for Mesa, but jonesing for a Fender Supersonic.

Good rookie week so far dude!
Keep it up!
Cheers!
Vinnyk

[blargfromouterspace]

I'm an amp lover. You can get so many sounds out of a guitar, and having a good amp to let those sounds out is very important. I have three amps - a Ceriatone tweed deluxe clone, an Ampeg J20 (which is a brownface deluxe clone) and a Laney LC30. The one I use most, for recording and gigging is the tweed deluxe. It's a very simple amp to use, I've never had complaints from sound guys in regard to the tone the thing throws out and it was cheap. What more could you ask for?! It gets used A LOT.I've just added an extension cab to it, so I now run it through one 12" Weber speaker and a 10" Eminence. It's really beefed the sound up. It has the perfect sound for both of the bands I play with (see my signature). The Ampeg is a bit louder, a bit cleaner and has an amazing tremolo built in. I'll occasionally use it, but I have a love hate relationship with it. The Laney is a great amp, with a Vox like sparkle to the sound. Its much louder than the other two and so doesn't get used all that much. It has a problem on the clean channel where if I run an OD pedal into it crackles up. I suspect a valve, it still has the same preamp tubes as when I bought it 12 or 13 years ago...

I haven't played through any Mesa's but with all the recommendations maybe I should ?!

Yes, you should Dave!!! Be warned, they aren't plug an play type amps. It took me quite a while to warm to mine, they're sooooo adjustable that finding the sound you want can take some time. Still, once you get it right they're awesome!

I love the pickups in my ASAT classics. I think I would love them even more if they had an AlNiCo magnet in them. The top end can be a bit harsh at times. Maybe it's not the magnets, but there is a definite shrillness present which isn't in the AlNiCo pickups I have. I wonder if I could do that myself......there's a magnet shop around here somewhere....

[standards guy]

...I love the pickups in my ASAT classics. I think I would love them even more if they had an AlNiCo magnet in them. The top end can be a bit harsh at times. Maybe it's not the magnets, but there is a definite shrillness present which isn't in the AlNiCo pickups I have. I wonder if I could do that myself......there's a magnet shop around here somewhere....

Wow. Now that's an intriguing idea!

Makes perfect sense though. On the MFD's on my guitar the magnet is underneath the coil and poles and could be changed. I never considered that.
I would need another guitar to A/B the results with, but that's never been a problem to any guitar guy I know (at least until I had retired)!

I like mine as-is, but that's a very interesting idea: I could have AlNiCo with adjustable poles.

[yowhatsshakin]

Leo was continually tinkering with pickups. For those of us that have the G&L Factory Tour DVD, you must have seen the interesting drawer in Leo's 'lab' with all his pickup configurations. And he had a very interesting breadboard he tested with where he could easily shift pups forward or backward and change their relative angle with respect to the strings. So I vote for the pups and MFD's in particular as G&L greatest innovation.

I'm one of the Mesa addicts. I play through a Subway Blues, rig gear containing a TriAxis pre-amp and Simul Class 2:90 power amp, and (my favorite) a Express 5:25 stack:

Just love these amps. Yes, just like any other tube amp, they need a tube 'refreshment' once in a while. But there are some wonderful tones coming out of these things. And the clipping is delicious. For instance, with my ASAT Classic through the Clean channel with the gain at 11 o'clock (see top row in picture) and on the 5W setting, just using the volume control on the guitar allows me to get from crystal clear to the slightest amount of distortion. So Dave, I also would highly recommend you'll try one. And usually, their manuals have very useful starting examples to get different tones. Just like G&L and PRS, to me it's clear that Mesa is a company by musicians for musicians (and not by bean counters for money)

Great questions again, Jeremy!

- Jos

Edit: fix image link after album was lost.

[bassman]

I have a couple of Silver face Fender tube amps. IMHO They are among the best tube amp values anywhere.
I don't find them problematic at all. You have to have them checked for bad caps ,but many performance issues can be fixed with a new set of tubes or better yet, just switching around the tubes that are already in the amp.

I have a Pro Reverb that I have loaned to a friend and he uses it in our band RAGs. 60Watts into two 12s. It a twin with half the power of a Twin Reverb.

I also have a Princeton Reverb and a Vibro Champ, which needs some work.

They are fun amps too.

[sickbutnottired]

I love the pickups in my ASAT classics. I think I would love them even more if they had an AlNiCo magnet in them. The top end can be a bit harsh at times. Maybe it's not the magnets, but there is a definite shrillness present which isn't in the AlNiCo pickups I have. I wonder if I could do that myself......there's a magnet shop around here somewhere....

Unwinding them will be no problem, the rewinding, different story? lol.

I

Good rookie week so far dude!
Keep it up!
Cheers!
Vinnyk

Thanks for backslap. I have played a Fender ProSonic quite a bit, I don't own one, but had a buddies for a couple months. I think the Prosonic and Supersonic are very similar pure class A or AB design is that right? Anyway the Prosonic was great, great clean sound.

As far as tube amps go, I enjoy mine thoroughly. I do not currently play out, but it is a Mesa, it would be no issue. I use it for recording, but recording has been non existant. I have been too focused on exercises and doing my research to take the time to record anything. I use it about 2 hours a day. I bought it new.. you can speculate on the price all you like.

I don't have much Mesa experience. I have played them in showrooms a couple times. But I am slow and it takes me awhile to get the hang of an amp. Plus, you have to turn to up to really get a feel for it. I'll pass on price speculation, but it wasn't cheap!

Hey Jeremy, I've always leaned towards Fender amps too, though I hadn't acquired anything vintage until last year.
Currently I have a '66 blackface Bandmaster that I have/do gig with, the Vibrato recently quit on me, haven't gotten around to fixing it just yet, it also could probably use a tune up. I really like the way it sounds, it's almost "there" but not quite. Like most, I'm always looking. I've had my eye on a blackface Tremolux lately, not much different from what I have, similar circuit (AB763 vs. AA763), a few different component values and a tube rectifier rather than solid state. It's a little lower wattage, a bit less headroom and that's just what I'm looking for. I haven't played through any Mesa's but with all the recommendations maybe I should ?!


-Dave

Well, you are one vintage Fender ahead of me! Is the vibrato the first issue you've had? I am just kinda crabby because I was sounding great 3 months ago, and lately it's been one thing after another. So don't let me get you down, it's probably really easily fixed. As an aside, I like just a touch of the Fender Tube/Spring reverb on my sound--and tube quality makes a ton of difference. So it the fix could be that easy!

Love is not the word I associate with amps (although I would with guitars). Then again, I ain't obsessed about chasing some "Holy Grail" tone generated by some Rock God somewhere at some point in time. When it comes to amps, first, I don't need no stinkin' master volume knob. I like 'em to put a clean and warm sound and one on which it is easy to dial in a goodly amount of mid-range growl. A lttle rawness don't hurt either.

My favorite rig at the moment - I done been Valco-ized.


G&L Guitars. Don't really have a clue what it is about them. Maybe it is the blending of tradition and innovation. I also think they are a heck of alot of guitar for the money. But when it comes down to it, while yeah, you can get custom doodads and colors and sometimes even a unique pickup arrangement, what I respect about G&L is they hold to the philosophy to give you the best they can on any off the shelf guitar.

Ok, First - this setup is Cool, with a purposeful capital C. Sounds like it's pretty new? Do you plan on playing it alot? Out? It's outrageous, don't even know where to begin.

I agree on master volume, none of my amps have it! But like you, I am shaping my own waves...thank you very much. Although I almost always get some preamp overdrive/breakup.

I agree on your G&L comments 100%.

Edit:
I played small, medium, and large, tube amps exclusively (as a snob) for decades. But in those decades SS has come a long ways, especially since I have gotten a lot "cleaner" in my sound. I loved my ol' Showman, and the Mesa/Boogies I've had, and the Tweed clones, have all had their day. I still love their sounds. But I am no longer willing to put up with the cheap tubes, or pay for the good ones, just for a bit of nuance in my sound. When I wanted a broad area of crunch from mild to wild, with just using the guitar volume, well, nothing but a tweed amp ever did that for me. I hate switchable amps because in a recording or live band sound suddenly there's this new sound that wasn't there before. It's like having a sax player suddenly show up half way through a song, like he phoned it in. Just my $0.02...

It sounds like I may be traveling down a similar path. I love the sounds, and really love my amp over all, but the hassle. I am using cheaper new tubes. I am putting 6V6's in my Deluxes for about 30-35 USD and am very happy with the sound. I manage my whole sound pretty much with the gain/switches on the guitar. No EFX, No channel switching. And I like it! But I am feeling like trying something new! Have fun playing that s-500!

[sickbutnottired]

I have a couple of Silver face Fender tube amps. IMHO They are among the best tube amp values anywhere.
I don't find them problematic at all. You have to have them checked for bad caps ,but many performance issues can be fixed with a new set of tubes or better yet, just switching around the tubes that are already in the amp.

I have a Pro Reverb that I have loaned to a friend and he uses it in our band RAGs. 60Watts into two 12s. It a twin with half the power of a Twin Reverb.

I also have a Princeton Reverb and a Vibro Champ, which needs some work.

They are fun amps too.

I agree about the value, and that is how I started with the Silverface fenders. They are not so precious that I worry about em, leaving them at bar for an afternoon after setup or something. I have had one Deluxe Reverb for about 10 years, and have only changed tubes, but it is the one that is currently giving me trouble. I have a Twin Reverb that I never play. It sounds pretty good, but it's just so loud. I have had it about 18 months, but don't know much about it. About the same time I got a second DR, for a song, but it didn't work. So I have gotten it going.

Leo was continually tinkering with pickups. For those of us that have the G&L Factory Tour DVD, you must have seen the interesting drawer in Leo's 'lab' with all his pickup configurations. And he had a very interesting breadboard he tested with where he could easily shift pups forward or backward and change their relative angle with respect to the strings.


So Dave, I also would highly recommend you'll try one. And usually, their manuals have very useful starting examples to get different tones. Just like G&L and PRS, to me it's clear that Mesa is a company by musicians for musicians (and not by bean counters for money)

Great questions again, Jeremy!

- Jos

I am not a historian, but I feel like Leo did a lot for pickups. The MFD's G&L was using being just one of many cool products. One that I think he really believed in! I would like to see the video, is it for sale form G&L?

Amps. I am sold on Mesa! I want to do a 'modern' amp project. IE get to know one. I was thinking Orange, but maybe it's Mesa! And It's down the road...I have to much going right now. But it is great to learn how others feel about equipment. There are so many options out there. And so many pretenders, it just hard to sort through!

[darwinohm]

Interesting topics today. The G&L pickups are great, I also dig the DF. The WOW factor for me is looking at, feeling them and even playing them unplugged. You show me a better looking herd than a group of G&Ls for the money and I will buy beer. I think all my guitars sound great. They are different but they all do something well. I was playing my MM p90 version last night and it does not have the brilliance that a Legacy has but it has some good tones coming from it.

The interesting question to me today is the amp question. I am probably not a good judge as I play at home mostly unplugged and I record direct, using the guitar I want or I use my Tone Lab (Vox) to shape the tone. During our last recording session there were some people who came away with a new respect for direct recording. No hum/buzz or noise to deal with. Just clean tones shaped the way you want and if we want dirty we use Steves dirty amp with buzz, hum and all. The noise gate cuts the noise during silent times but dirty it is. But recently I have been experimenting with something different than most would and I am going to bore some of you with details. First test is with my Sonic Stomp

I have a Twin Reverb Custom 15, A Cyber Twin SE, and a Bogner Alchemist. As many of you know the Alchemist was terrible when I bought it and I replaced the preamp tubes going from 12AX7s to 12AT7s. It was a different amp. With the Sonic Stomp, the Custom 15 lights up and it has virtually no effect on the Bogner and very little on the Cyber Twin. That suprised me but the Custom 15 is extremely clean. The Bogner is very sweet sounding and I would describe it as fuller that the Custom 15. The Cyber Twin does what you set it to do.

Next thing I have been doing is running two amps, comparing with an A/B switch and then running them together. Someone mentioned last week about running a more powerful amp at low volume provides a fuller, sweeter, sound. I believe that is true. It is something to run the amps together as the tone is so much fuller and sweeter. Adding delay to one and not changing the other will give you the nicest effect. It tempers the effect but is so much fuller. I had the hearing aids squealing on all channels last night. It seems that I can put any of these two amps together and everything get that much better(wish I could say the same for my playing). They are all tube amps and I do my own work on them. This is becoming an interesting project and Ginny has commented that she like what she is hearing. That could work to my advantage. The problem becomes if I want to use all three I will have to buy another A/B switch. I will also have to get a young dude to load and move these things for me if I gig them. I now think I know why these hot artists have banks of amplifiers behind them. I am not joking folks, the second amp make quite a difference. Never too old to learn, just harder to keep up. When my MIDI shows up I will be into the Cyber Twin and I will report on that. Just imagine as I get more forgetful how entertaining this stuff will become to me!!!!!!! Great start to the week Jeremy--Darwin

[zapcosongs]

Amps: I have long had a Fender Super 60 and I really like it a lot. My problem is that it just gets starting to sound great about the same time my wife starts yelling for me to turn it down. So I needed something smaller. I wished for a Super Champ XD last year for Xmas, and Santa brought me one. Channel one is nice enough and suits me. I have little use for the second (digital modeling) channel. But though I'd looked and looked, the thing came with no mojo whatsoever. So......

A couple of months back an excellent longtime member here posted an ad in the marketplace wanting to trade two of his low-watt vintage amps.
I shipped out a high-end guitar I didn't use to the West Coast, and he (lovingly packed and) shipped his little gems east. I'm now getting to know and enjoying my rare Vox AC4 and my 1966 Vibro Champ. Both of these are in unbelievable (time traveler) condition, though the speaker in the Vox is not original (it's better, actually). So, now I can play something other than my acoustic guitar late into the evenings without waking the kids (the '86 ASAT sounds killer through the Vibro Champ, btw, so long as the amp isn't dimed).

My Super 60 is getting tuned up and I get it back from my amp guy Saturday, 10:30 AM. A guy needs to rattle some windows sometimes, don't he?

Poll/G&L Question: Yeah, it really is the MFDs that sets the G&Ls apart (though I also think it's very cool that the Leo-era guitars feel more like vintage Fender instruments to me than vintage Fenders do, if that makes any sense...) Good week going here, thanks! - ed

[sam]

More great stuff and previous replies just make me want more amps.

Ed, open the windows so we can all hear ya!

Yep I love my amps and while the Boogie is a favorite the 70's Vibro Champ is a ton of fun and the Blues Deluxe can find its way every now and then. Amps and guitars can be tone search though, I would love to get a Boogie Lonestar Special, Mark V or an old Princeton Reverb for the 15W sound. The money tree is just bare right now.

No gigging, just squeezing in playing time when not keeping the day job alive. Not as much playing as I would like, so little time and so much to try. When I can it's on a variety of ASAT's or a 62' tele reissue. Lately I've had multi personality with amps, bouncing between grinding classic rock with Boogie, clean with reverb and delay's on Deluxe and just clean and slow with Vibro Champ, arpeggios and kids music. Mainly the Boogie.

G&L which is the MOST critical to your sound and/or enjoyment of music today?
G&L, Musicman and Fender all had great moments and some momumental designs but gotta be pick ups for me. MFD's and Z coils are in a league of their own. All my G&L's except for one have original p-ups. Only the ASAT Deluxe had p-ups changed, and they are not Leo design anyway.

Stage fright? No way dude, keep it up!!

[desertrat07]

I haven't been playing for too long, so haven't tried or owned too many amps. First was a Fender Blues Jr. Decent sound, plenty loud, but somewhat limited one-channel ability and a bit flabby on the low end. Second was Bad Cat Mini Cat, 5 watter, awesome saturated rock sound at low vol, quality build, but again somewhat limited and no headroom to speak of. My current amp, a Rivera Clubster 25, captures the best of both those prior amps, and turns it up a notch. I dropped a 10" Eminence Red Fang in it and it sings. Nice clean chime, and a dirty channel that goes from slightly overdriven blues to full on raunch. As loud as I'll ever need too. Probably not the best Rivera makes, but nice for the price. I'd really love to get a Quiana. Any love for Rivera out there?

[Dave_P]

Well, you are one vintage Fender ahead of me! Is the vibrato the first issue you've had? I am just kinda crabby because I was sounding great 3 months ago, and lately it's been one thing after another. So don't let me get you down, it's probably really easily fixed. As an aside, I like just a touch of the Fender Tube/Spring reverb on my sound--and tube quality makes a ton of difference. So it the fix could be that easy!

Yep (knock on wood), aside from a blown 12ax7 and the vibrato, it's been good to me. I think the vibrato just needs a new optocoupler or "roach" as it's commonly referred to. It's only around $13 for the part, but I'm not very confidant about discharging the caps to do the work. No worries about getting me down, I've had a good track record with the Fender amps I've owned, wouldn't hesitate to buy another If you're ever looking for a blackface type fender the bandmaster is a steal, they go for around $500 all the time, I saw a couple of Tremolux's go recently for $700 on the bay, one was Leo era (FEI) with RCA Blackplates too really wish I had the cash for that one.