2010 Legacy (SSH) - VERY, VERY NOISY!

[GuitarDisciple]

I purchased a 2010 Legacy which I had custom ordered. Here’s how it was originally configured:

PICKUPS 2 G&L Alnico V single coil pickups, 1 Seymour Duncan JB Humbucker
BODY WOOD Alder
NECK WOOD Vintage Tinted - Hard Rock Maple with Maple Board with "soft V" neck profile
NECK RADIUS 12" (304.8mm)
NECK WIDTH AT NUT 1 5/8" (41.3mm)
FRET WIRE Medium Jumbo 6100
TUNING KEYS 16:1 ratio locking machines, sealed lubrication, adjustable knob tension
BRIDGE G&L Dual Fulcrum vibrato with chrome-plated brass saddles
CONTROLS 5 position pickup selector plus mini-toggleswitch enabling additional pickup combinations of neck+bridge or all 3 pickups together, volume, PTB system
BODY COLOR Tobacco Sunburst
OTHER 3-Ply Ivory Pickguard, Ivory Pickups & Knobs
CASE G&L Molded Hardshell
UPGRADES Locking Tuners

I absolutely love everything about the guitar except the very irritating noise coming from it.

Regardless of what amp I use or pickup I select, once my hands leave the strings, I get a lot of noise. If I place my hand across all the strings the noise goes away. If my amp is cranked, it is really annoying!

I thought that it might be a ground issue, but I double checked all the wiring and it appears to be fine. So I thought that perhaps the the stock p/u’s might be a contributing factor but even with the HB selected it is noisy!

Nevertheless, I dropped a couple of Lindy Fralin Split Blades in the neck & middle position, and as I suspected, it made no difference in the noise.

I am desperate to get rid of the noise, so I purchased copper foil, lined the entire cavity and corresponding portion of the pick guard, effectively creating a faraday shield. The noise dropped significantly, but is still not silent.

I have been playing this guitar around my home, through a Carr Mercury & Mesa Boogie LS Special; I am not under a bunch of lights or around emmisons that one would typically associate with noise - I should not be having these sort of problems…

Any suggestions would be appreciated!

Thanks!

[darwinohm]

I think that you have discovered the problem. I would shield the entire back side of the pickguard. That is about all that is left. If that doesn't do it I would put foil around the control plate cavity, make sure the plate is grounded and wrap the wires to the output jack with foil. Should G&L be looking at these issues????---Darwin

[Craig]

I purchased a 2010 Legacy which I had custom ordered. Here’s how it was originally configured:

PICKUPS 2 G&L Alnico V single coil pickups, 1 Seymour Duncan JB Humbucker
BODY WOOD Alder
NECK WOOD Vintage Tinted - Hard Rock Maple with Maple Board with "soft V" neck profile
NECK RADIUS 12" (304.8mm)
NECK WIDTH AT NUT 1 5/8" (41.3mm)
FRET WIRE Medium Jumbo 6100
TUNING KEYS 16:1 ratio locking machines, sealed lubrication, adjustable knob tension
BRIDGE G&L Dual Fulcrum vibrato with chrome-plated brass saddles
CONTROLS 5 position pickup selector plus mini-toggleswitch enabling additional pickup combinations of neck+bridge or all 3 pickups together, volume, PTB system
BODY COLOR Tobacco Sunburst
OTHER 3-Ply Ivory Pickguard, Ivory Pickups & Knobs
CASE G&L Molded Hardshell
UPGRADES Locking Tuners

I absolutely love everything about the guitar except the very irritating noise coming from it.

Regardless of what amp I use or pickup I select, once my hands leave the strings, I get a lot of noise. If I place my hand across all the strings the noise goes away. If my amp is cranked, it is really annoying!

I thought that it might be a ground issue, but I double checked all the wiring and it appears to be fine. So I thought that perhaps the the stock p/u’s might be a contributing factor but even with the HB selected it is noisy!

Nevertheless, I dropped a couple of Lindy Fralin Split Blades in the neck & middle position, and as I suspected, it made no difference in the noise.

I am desperate to get rid of the noise, so I purchased copper foil, lined the entire cavity and corresponding portion of the pick guard, effectively creating a faraday shield. The noise dropped significantly, but is still not silent.

I have been playing this guitar around my home, through a Carr Mercury & Mesa Boogie LS Special; I am not under a bunch of lights or around emmisons that one would typically associate with noise - I should not be having these sort of problems…

Any suggestions would be appreciated!

Thanks!

It sounds to me like the bridge ground wire came detached from the spring claw.

You should have returned it to the G&L dealer you got it from and let them investigate and probably fix it.
Your G&L instrument has a 10 year warranty and you just voided it because you replaced the pickups and further modded it.

My recommendation is: put it back to it's original state and take it to the dealer with your receipt.
Tell them what the problem is and also tell them that you tried to remedy the problem but put it back to it's original state.
If they have a good guitar tech at that dealer he/she should be able to id and fix the problem. If not, they will return it
to the factory for warranty repair.

BTW, here's what the underside of the pickguard should look like:


Hope this helps.

[Philby]

Please keep us updated with how you go. I've got a similarly noisy 1997 S-500.

I was going to shield it and star ground it the next time I change strings, but if that only partially works I'm out of ideas.

I'd do what Craig suggests first as you're still under warranty. Removing ground loops by star grounding might help seeing as you've already built a Faraday cage around the pickups.

[GuitarDisciple]

Appreciate both replies; I sincerely thank you! Really appreciate the picture and advice from both posts to date!

Before I made any attempts, I checked with G&L about the grounding and they immediately pointed me to the claw grounding, which appears to be fine.

Earlier in my life, I worked as electronics technician on some pretty sophisticated gear. I have forgotten a lot of my theory due to a lack of use, but not the basics and this stuff is pretty basic. Obviously though, I am still missing something, hence my attempt to reach out to the community, to which you graciously responded.

The potential for a ground “loop” could be a culprit, as opposed to a "star", I suppose? But I would think that these guitars are all wired identically at the factory, which would lead other folks to the same problem.

One thing that I failed to do to date was to re-solder all connections. Perhaps, I have a cold solder joint?

Incidentally, the good news is that I have not voided my warranty. I asked G&L and although they will not cover any new components that I install, e.g. pickups, etc, the warranty remains intact unless of course I do damage to the guitar. I did not modify anything other than building the faraday cage & replaced the pickups, both of which are relatively minor mods and had a positive albeit not complete impact on the problem. I could always reinsert the pickups, but removing the adhesive backed copper would be messy and frankly not necessary given that it would have no bearing on the warranty.

Thanks again for your input!

[yowhatsshakin]

Don't forget to check your guitar chord. If the ground is disconnected on that end, the same problem would show up.

- Jos

[standards guy]

...Regardless of what amp I use or pickup I select, once my hands leave the strings, I get a lot of noise. If I place my hand across all the strings the noise goes away...

Unfortunately this is a common problem with high impedence (standard electric guitar practice) systems, especially that have any single coils aboard.

But when you say it does this with any pickup or combination that's a red flag. I'm used to a little noise sneaking through even with humbucker pickups if I take my hands off the strings or bridge. Most guitars will do this if you have a powerful amp with a high gain preamp. I've gotten pretty good at orienting myself away from 60hz sources (like amplifiers, light dimmers, neon light tranformers, etc). Modern amps have a lot more gain and music levels are certainly higher than when Leo first developed his designs.

I have had good results with installing sheilded wire when wiring up a guitar, and also using two conductor wire with an entirely separate sheild, which I then lift at the pickup end to break ground loops. Sometimes with stacked "noiseless" pickups etc, an aluminum pickguard, and sheilded cable, I can get an essentially silent guitar until played. But my S500 is a bit hummy (stock wiring). It is what I think of as normal for S/S/S pickups with hum-cancel on switch position #2 & #4.

If your guitar is inordinately noisy it could be a ground loop. I'd try to find multiple ground paths to components and lift one end.

[GuitarDisciple]

Thanks for the input, Standards Guy!!

I may try adding shielded 2-conductor wiring. Can you elaborate on what you meant when you stated: "using two conductor wire with an entirely separate shield, which I then lift at the pickup end to break ground loops" ? Are you suggesting to ground the shield and one end of one of the 2-conductor pairs, leaving only the 2nd conductor in the signal path? If so, are the two conductors within the shield a twisted pair? Just trying to understand how the second conductor may help...

Appreciate your time and input.

Thank you!

[replyman]

With everyone switching from incandescent to compact florescent, these noise issues will keep coming up for "home rockers". I only use them for outdoor lighting. Indoors, they have a flicker rate that makes some have seizures and have a high mercury content. Al Gore downplays that; the lack of recycling too...

All this shielding in my opinion represents the lack of well designed low-voltage schematics. Even a metal pickguard won't save you. Will all guitars in the future require these home remedies? Companies should offer a shielding option for an upcharge. I WANT MY GUITARS TO BE PLUG-AND-PLAY RIGHT OUT OF THE BOX! The last thing I want to do is spend hours looking online for solutions and then tearing apart my new guitar...

[yowhatsshakin]

... I WANT MY GUITARS TO BE PLUG-AND-PLAY RIGHT OUT OF THE BOX!

Will only happen when Apple makes them

- Jos

[standards guy]

Thanks for the input, Standards Guy!!

I may try adding shielded 2-conductor wiring. Can you elaborate on what you meant when you stated: "using two conductor wire with an entirely separate shield, which I then lift at the pickup end to break ground loops" ? Are you suggesting to ground the shield and one end of one of the 2-conductor pairs, leaving only the 2nd conductor in the signal path? If so, are the two conductors within the shield a twisted pair? Just trying to understand how the second conductor may help...

Appreciate your time and input.

Thank you!

Yes. Years ago I bought a spool of Belden 8451 (Belden Corporation - Chicago, Illinois 80844 USA) from a wholesale industrial Electrical Supply house. It is a pair of stranded copper jacketed wires inside a foil shield (which also has a bare tinned stranded wire inside the jacket for grounding purposes). Plus there's a jacket overall. If they are twisted, it's pretty mild, because I've been able to pull one out of a 4-6 inch section. I use the pair as conductors spliced right at the pickup , then ground the ground shield wire to a central point (a pot), but I don't ground the pickup end with the shield. The shield is therefore effective to capture and bleed off interference, but since it is separated from the conductors allows no return path to get a ground loop flowing to that pickup(s). I usually run shielded to the output jack too, with the same scheme (lifted ground shield at the jack end, but grounded at the source end).

I have gotten quite a few guitars with balanced coil humbuckers or noiseless pickups essentially silent: quieter even than EMG set ups. Some of the newer PAF style humbuckers like Burstbuckers or Filtertrons are not exactly balanced between the coils, so sometimes there can still be a hint of hum, but worth it for more brightness, in my book.

Of course with true single coils there is a limit to how quiet this scheme will get, but in my experience it can get at least twice as quiet even with single coils as before, even without shielded pickguards and the like.

My last partsocaster strat type with Fender SCN's and an aluminum pickguard was very quiet, but under extreme gain conditions I could still detect just a trace of hum sometimes (until I touched the strings). Other guitars I've done similiarly with Noiseless s/s/s configurations have sometimes been dead silent until played.

Again, my stock s/s/s '05 S500 seems fine to me as-is, even with me on the neck pickup 95% of the time at our lil' ol' restaurant dinner/wallpaper standards jobs.

The MFD pickups have enough signal to noise ratio for me even if there is a bit of hum: it's not that noticable to me on jobs. At home I notice it a lot more.

I suppose if I was recording I might do something to further quiet it, but the last vanity CD I helped on for a gal I used some guy's s/s/s Legacy through a POD, and it was fine on #2 & #4 switch positions.

[GuitarDisciple]

Thanks for the input, Standards Guy!!

I may try adding shielded 2-conductor wiring. Can you elaborate on what you meant when you stated: "using two conductor wire with an entirely separate shield, which I then lift at the pickup end to break ground loops" ? Are you suggesting to ground the shield and one end of one of the 2-conductor pairs, leaving only the 2nd conductor in the signal path? If so, are the two conductors within the shield a twisted pair? Just trying to understand how the second conductor may help...

Appreciate your time and input.

Thank you!

Yes. Years ago I bought a spool of Belden 8451 (Belden Corporation - Chicago, Illinois 80844 USA) from a wholesale industrial Electrical Supply house. It is a pair of stranded copper jacketed wires inside a foil shield (which also has a bare tinned stranded wire inside the jacket for grounding purposes). Plus there's a jacket overall. If they are twisted, it's pretty mild, because I've been able to pull one out of a 4-6 inch section. I use the pair as conductors spliced right at the pickup , then ground the ground shield wire to a central point (a pot), but I don't ground the pickup end with the shield. The shield is therefore effective to capture and bleed off interference, but since it is separated from the conductors allows no return path to get a ground loop flowing to that pickup(s). I usually run shielded to the output jack too, with the same scheme (lifted ground shield at the jack end, but grounded at the source end)....

Got it - thanks!! Really appreciate the help!

[darwinohm]

This was a common ways of grounding the shields on computer channel cables running between computers in the 80's. The grounds would only be tied to one computer. therefore eliminating a ground loop.-- Darwin

[standards guy]

Yeah I was once probably the worst Electronics Technician the U.S.Navy ever tried to train.

Later on though -around commercial radio stations- I came to understand the advantages of low-impedence NAB (National Association of Broadcasters) standards. It was common practice to lift the ground on one end of a XLR connector microphone cable. Same idea.