Shielding

darylb · Post by **darylb** » Fri Nov 19, 2010 9:37 pm

I love my ASAT Special but it is a little noisier than I was expecting. I am also having some issues with my amp so that may be part of the problem. Anyway, I know I have heard of guys shielding their guitars by putting a copper tape or something similar inside the cavities and grounding it.

What's the consensus? Any of you guys done the shielding? Does it really help? Any downsides?

sirmyghin · Post by **sirmyghin** » Fri Nov 19, 2010 10:06 pm

My ASAT special has no noise issues (2010), no more than my humbuckers at high gain. All noise on my end is amp. I have not shielded this but some copper tape might help, go for it on the back of the pickguard too if yo ugo that route and it may help also.

Elwood · Post by **Elwood** » Fri Nov 19, 2010 11:00 pm

It does help, you have to make sure there is a good connection from the shielding to the ground.
The physical contact of the pot chassis is usually good enough for the pickguard shielding.For the pickup and electronics cavity I usually solder a wire to the tape that is connected to the ground.

Here's a good link:
http://www.bassesbyleo.com/sb2_shield_job.html

zedsnotdead · Post by **zedsnotdead** » Tue Nov 23, 2010 4:28 pm

I shielded my tribute s500, because of the 60 cycle "hummm" typical of single coils.
i used aluminium foil glued to the cavities, following these steps: http://www.guitarnuts.com/wiring/shielding/shield3.php
Looks too complicated, long text writen, but is well worth it.
My MFD's are now dead silence!

Philby · Post by **Philby** » Tue Nov 23, 2010 4:58 pm

I've also shielded several of my strats with Al foil glued to the cavities and pickguard, and I star grounded all the wiring.
Like Zed, I followed the guitarnuts link.
It's fiddly work shielding the cavity, and I was sceptical of the improvements of star grounding, but it really does work!
Before I made the changes I could change the level of hum by holding or releasing the strings (bad earth somewhere).
It's an eerie thing the first time you hear single coil pickups without hum. I kept checking to make sure I was still plugged in.

zedsnotdead · Post by **zedsnotdead** » Tue Nov 23, 2010 5:22 pm

Philby wrote:I've also shielded several of my strats with Al foil glued to the cavities and pickguard, and I star grounded all the wiring.
Like Zed, I followed the guitarnuts link.
It's fiddly work shielding the cavity, and I was sceptical of the improvements of star grounding, but it really does work!
Before I made the changes I could change the level of hum by holding or releasing the strings (bad earth somewhere).
It's an eerie thing the first time you hear single coil pickups without hum. I kept checking to make sure I was still plugged in.

Yes, forgot to mention that i also shielded the pickguard.
BTW, it's not a bad earth problem, it´s really the 60 cycle magnetic interference that is all around you and your body is like a "source" of all that noise and the pickups are the receivers (i mean, this noise is induced to the pickup like..wel.. when your celulcar is close to a speaker and the speaker starts doing that strange noise when you receive a call, you know what i mean? Celular=source, speaker=receiver, and there's no wires connecting them).
So this noise is received by the pickup, so you can hear it in your amp. When you touch the string, the noise "flow" through earth like this: body->string->bridge->earth. So if it's well grounded, the "humm" should be less when you touch the strings.
If its not, then yes, there's a bad ground wiring problem.

darylb · Post by **darylb** » Tue Nov 23, 2010 8:04 pm

Thanks for the replies. It is good to know that if I choose to do it, that it has worked for some. I am mostly talking about playing at home and changed where some things were plugged in and it helped. I also learned of the technique that someone coined as weather vane. I turn in my chair until the hum stops. Not sure why I didnt know this but when I turn to the right angle, it is dead silent. At least I know my guitar isnt a noisy beast. Beast yes, noisy no.

de Valcourt · Post by **de Valcourt** » Tue Nov 23, 2010 11:33 pm

This is good info. I have an S-500 that I'm still (and always will be) tweaking for the perfect tone. I also have more noise than I expected with the MFD single coils, but I planned on doing a shielding approach to the cavity next time I change the strings.

This is the first I've heard about shielding the back of the pick guard, though it makes perfect sense now. Since I was going to put in a pearloid pick guard in place of the ordinary white one on it now, that fits my overall plans perfectly.

However, I now have a different question: I was planning on using aluminum tape for the cavity. Then I saw the post about copper tape above. Is one "better" than the other for getting rid of noise? I've had EMGs in my old strat for so many years that I forgot what noise is like as well as the warmth of good old fashioned pickups, and with adjustable posts, I'll be tinkering for a while yet.

Any suggested readings for the best way to make use of these adjustable posts? So far, just as they came set from the previous owner they are much hotter than expected and I just want to capitalize on the technology. Replacing the MFD pickups hasn't even crossed my mind.

Thanks in advance,
Phillip

zedsnotdead · Post by **zedsnotdead** » Wed Nov 24, 2010 10:39 am

de Valcourt wrote:This is good info. I have an S-500 that I'm still (and always will be) tweaking for the perfect tone. I also have more noise than I expected with the MFD single coils, but I planned on doing a shielding approach to the cavity next time I change the strings.

This is the first I've heard about shielding the back of the pick guard, though it makes perfect sense now. Since I was going to put in a pearloid pick guard in place of the ordinary white one on it now, that fits my overall plans perfectly.

However, I now have a different question: I was planning on using aluminum tape for the cavity. Then I saw the post about copper tape above. Is one "better" than the other for getting rid of noise? I've had EMGs in my old strat for so many years that I forgot what noise is like as well as the warmth of good old fashioned pickups, and with adjustable posts, I'll be tinkering for a while yet.

Any suggested readings for the best way to make use of these adjustable posts? So far, just as they came set from the previous owner they are much hotter than expected and I just want to capitalize on the technology. Replacing the MFD pickups hasn't even crossed my mind.

Thanks in advance,
Phillip

You can use Al foil, they're almost as good as copper foil and cheaper. It did the trick for me, 100%.
About the adjustable pots, i don't get what you mean... could you be more specific?

darylb wrote:Thanks for the replies. It is good to know that if I choose to do it, that it has worked for some. I am mostly talking about playing at home and changed where some things were plugged in and it helped. I also learned of the technique that someone coined as weather vane. I turn in my chair until the hum stops. Not sure why I didnt know this but when I turn to the right angle, it is dead silent. At least I know my guitar isnt a noisy beast. Beast yes, noisy no.

Yes, when you move around the noise will change, like say when you turn your TV/Radio antena you get different signal strength.
I also play at home in a 20W combo. I also tested moving around with guitar changed the hummm. It's all related where you are, how the picukps are aligned with the your home power line paths along the wall, for example... other source of noise could come from a microwave hoven, your TV, your cellular, etc etc.

de Valcourt · Post by **de Valcourt** » Sun Nov 28, 2010 2:32 am

You can use Al foil, they're almost as good as copper foil and cheaper. It did the trick for me, 100%.
About the adjustable pots, i don't get what you mean... could you be more specific?

Thanks for the input and please bear with me since I am new to the G&L guitars and their amazing electronics.

I am heading to one of the big home improvement stores tomorrow to get what is called "aluminum tape" on a roll which I understand is much easier to apply - no glue, cut to fit and won't come off over time unless you want to remove it and then it is much simpler.

My S-500 (presumably 1995 Custom shop because of the finish - and what a serious guitar collector has told me) came with a white pickguard. I'm going to replace it with a pearloid one when I change the strings, apply the tape, look for a manufacturing date??, and will tape the underside of the pickguard as well.

But, that leads me to another question; namely, how much of the back of the pickguard should I cover? Would ovals about 1 inch wide around the pickup holes be sufficient or should more area(s) be covered?

The same guitar collector friend has a very well-equipped studio and though he loves G&L guitars, the noise from mine is driving him crazy. Hopefully this will make us both happier because I like this guitar even more than the pre-CBS strat I've had for about 25 years. I put EMGs in the Fender to get rid of the hum, but I was young and we didn't have the technology or know-how available then to solve the problem and keep the original sound.

As for the bit about the adjustable magnetic posts in the MFD pickups (height), I think that question belongs in another thread.

Phillip

zedsnotdead · Post by **zedsnotdead** » Sun Nov 28, 2010 4:34 am

Ahhhh, now i got it! it's not "posts", but POLES! Magnetic poles.
Well, you could set them to standard, like described in guitar manual in page 8 http://www.guitarsbyleo.com/GALLERY2/ma ... itemId=378.
If you want them a little hotter, just adjust the height near the strings, and vice-versa.

About the foil, what i did was take off all the pots, switches and such. Then i completly covered the pickguard and inner cavities with foil. Didn't miss a spot. Then with a pencil or something, you just need to "drill" where the holes are. Look here, example 3: http://www.metalpickguards.com/DIY_Home ... _Home.html

de Valcourt · Post by **de Valcourt** » Sun Nov 28, 2010 5:02 am

"Poles" it is. I'm still learning about such an interesting concept and don't have much accumulated knowledge yet on these pickups.

Thank you for the info on shielding and the link to the website. Pictures are always the best route for me in figuring out these kinds of things.

Phillip

zedsnotdead · Post by **zedsnotdead** » Mon Nov 29, 2010 4:22 am

You are welcome, anytime you need help just ask. Thats what we're here for

Please, keep us informed about how your shielding is going and results!

burndog · Post by **burndog** » Mon Nov 29, 2010 6:56 am

hey de Valcourt, could you do me a huge favour, when you go to do your shielding, can you check my last wiring diagram in this thread to let me know if I have everything correct. I would be very grateful.... http://guitarsbyleo.com/FORUM/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=2628

de Valcourt · Post by **de Valcourt** » Mon Nov 29, 2010 9:01 pm

I will keep you all advised on the results and burndog, I will try to remember to check the wiring diagram and take as many photos as I can while doing the changes so you can see what's going on in there while everything is out of the guitar. It may be a while since I'm waiting for my guitar tech to get back into the states so when I change the pickguard and do all that shielding, he can take it and finish the fret job and the second half of the complete set up to get the strings where I want them now that the neck has moved all that it should.

Does anyone know where I can see how to do the "star point" grounding in my S-500 body?

Time to get some practice in...

Thanks again,
Phillip (de Valcourt is simply my last name and have been using it on history and literature forums for a long time so I can't really shake it - I make a little extra cash teaching at one of the state colleges here).

burndog · Post by **burndog** » Mon Nov 29, 2010 9:31 pm

Thanks Phillip, much appreciated.

zedsnotdead · Post by **zedsnotdead** » Tue Nov 30, 2010 4:55 am

de Valcourt wrote: Does anyone know where I can see how to do the "star point" grounding in my S-500 body?

See if this helps. It's just a ring with all the earths connected to it.

de Valcourt · Post by **de Valcourt** » Tue Nov 30, 2010 7:05 pm

Cool, I'll copy this picture so that I'll have it when I get to do all of this work.

As I've said before, I'm not an electrician and doing this kind of work is going to be very satisfying compared to just handing the guitar to somebody then picking it up a week later. So here's a question: is the "ring" an actual metal conductive ring of soe kind or just what is formed by the solder and the wires in a circle?

Phillip

burndog · Post by **burndog** » Tue Nov 30, 2010 8:43 pm

Hey Phillip, here is the full article, the goes into quite a bit of detail. It is an interesting sight.

http://www.guitarnuts.com/wiring/shielding/shield3.php

zedsnotdead · Post by **zedsnotdead** » Wed Dec 01, 2010 4:48 am

de Valcourt wrote:Cool, I'll copy this picture so that I'll have it when I get to do all of this work.

As I've said before, I'm not an electrician and doing this kind of work is going to be very satisfying compared to just handing the guitar to somebody then picking it up a week later. So here's a question: is the "ring" an actual metal conductive ring of soe kind or just what is formed by the solder and the wires in a circle?

Phillip

Ok Phillip, maybe this would clear your mind

The so called "ring" is nothing more than a joint. Every earth conductors should connect there.
You must use anything conductive, say a metal ring or even a connector. In my case I used a connector like this (instead of a ring):

All i did is use ONE of those connectors (not a bar like the picture, just one) and every earth conductor are going there.

OK, this is what i did.
But you could use a ring if you want. Just mind that after you solder all the earth conductors you must isolate the ring, with say a isolating tape.

de Valcourt · Post by **de Valcourt** » Wed Dec 01, 2010 7:28 pm

Thanks again guys. I started reading the "how to" article on the GuitarNuts site provided by burndog (thank you) and I can tell this is going to be a Christmas-New Year's break project. Just reading the initial stuff in the article was helpful (I lowered the pickups and some of the noise already disappeared).

[Any recommendations about the optimum height for MFD single coils? I'll worry about the pole heights later...]

It is very cool that so many folks are willing to help out. I promise to share the results and the process leading to whatever results are achieved.

Phillip

burndog · Post by **burndog** » Thu Dec 02, 2010 6:50 am

this link should get you close to what you need

http://www.guitarsbyleo.com/GALLERY2/ma ... itemId=366

and while you're at it, this link may prove helpful as well.

http://www.guitarsbyleo.com/GALLERY2/ma ... itemId=378

I'm hoping to set up mine as with the above links just as soon as I get my wiring done.

de Valcourt · Post by **de Valcourt** » Thu Dec 02, 2010 11:29 pm

I'm saving all these posts until I get the chance to use them in about 1-2 weeks.

Question though: is it really going to be necessary to do anything to the wiring other than the re-routing I saw in the "non-artist" rendering? I mean I won't need to change or enhance the existing shielding on a presumably 1995 G&L S-500's current wiring, right?

Phillip

zedsnotdead · Post by **zedsnotdead** » Fri Dec 03, 2010 8:20 am

I don't know if you are a soldering expert, but when you open your guitar you could check if all the wiring is OK, namely if there's any "wiring confusion" (for example i like to keep the wiring tight and routed), or if any soldered end is weak or fragile (almost breaking).
Basicaly, if you go "what the hell!?!" when you check the wiring, then some things could be "enhanced", yes

If you are not too confortable about soldering, then just check the wiring ends and if they all are Ok according to the schematics.

de Valcourt · Post by **de Valcourt** » Sat Dec 04, 2010 8:56 am

The same professional guitar tech and friend I keep mentioning has already checked the wiring as a possible source of some of the noise. He said it all looked good then lowered the pickups quite a bit from where they had been - which helped some, but I feel like I've lost a little of the "edge" in my tone. However, I'm sure that will all be remedied in time. When it comes to adjusting the wiring to the diagram (if necessary, since those show a Fender Strat), I have another friend who just got a new soldering set and is itching to do more with it (he also collects guitars).

Hopefully when my second shot at a tube amp gets here Monday the tubes are all in one piece and I can play through it to start getting an idea what I'm going to do with the height of the individual pole pieces in the MFD pickups.

For now, I've got to take my under-the-weather self back to bed for a while. :sick:

Phillip

standards guy · Post by **standards guy** » Sun Dec 05, 2010 8:06 am

de Valcourt wrote:...lowered the pickups quite a bit from where they had been - which helped some, but I feel like I've lost a little of the "edge" in my tone...

I would expect that result when lowering the pickups. Different players set them by ear usually. Not sure why lowering them would make them less noisy. Maybe the pickguard shielding comes more into play, but there's a balance between noise when idling and signal to noise ratio, and I think MFD's are good for signal to noise ratio. I'd run them higher if you want more edge. I keep my neck pickup lowered for a bit more mellow jazz tone, but my bridge pickup is as high as practical and I don't notice it being noisier than the neck pu.

de Valcourt · Post by **de Valcourt** » Sun Dec 05, 2010 11:27 am

Different players set them by ear usually. Not sure why lowering them would make them less noisy.

It's purely academic until my amp gets (back) in and I can listen to the guitar through tubes at some volume. Even then, I'm still going to have to wait until I can get everything into the studio to hear what the microphones pick up that my ears don't. In the meantime, I'll just practice my scales.

Phillip

gitapik · Post by **gitapik** » Mon Jan 09, 2012 6:12 am

Hey folks. Wondering how this all turned out? I've got a 2010 ASAT Classic. I love the tone but the noise (esp with OD) is a little annoying. I can live with it but if I can really keep this superb edge and tone AND reduce the noise in the 1 and 3 position, I'd be one very happy camper. If its going to reduce that edge, though; I'll just have to live with that hummmm.

zedsnotdead · Post by **zedsnotdead** » Mon Jan 09, 2012 7:59 am

de Valcourt wrote:
Different players set them by ear usually. Not sure why lowering them would make them less noisy.
It's purely academic until my amp gets (back) in and I can listen to the guitar through tubes at some volume. Even then, I'm still going to have to wait until I can get everything into the studio to hear what the microphones pick up that my ears don't. In the meantime, I'll just practice my scales.

Phillip

Mind that the amp is also a electronic device surrounded by electrostatic noise. Also the cable is like a antenna, the longer it is the more it "absorves" noise, even if its not plugged to guitar.

gitapik wrote:Hey folks. Wondering how this all turned out? I've got a 2010 ASAT Classic. I love the tone but the noise (esp with OD) is a little annoying. I can live with it but if I can really keep this superb edge and tone AND reduce the noise in the 1 and 3 position, I'd be one very happy camper. If its going to reduce that edge, though; I'll just have to live with that hummmm.

Is your guitar shielded? If not, go ahead and try it. There's a ton of info about it over the web but I recommend the GuitarNutz website ("Quieting the Beast" procedure).
It worked 100% for my S500.
Hope it helped.

louis cyfer · Post by **louis cyfer** » Mon Jan 09, 2012 9:35 am

gitapik wrote:Hey folks. Wondering how this all turned out? I've got a 2010 ASAT Classic. I love the tone but the noise (esp with OD) is a little annoying. I can live with it but if I can really keep this superb edge and tone AND reduce the noise in the 1 and 3 position, I'd be one very happy camper. If its going to reduce that edge, though; I'll just have to live with that hummmm.

shielding helps. copper works better than aluminum for the cavity, and am aluminum plate instead of foil on the pickguard (even copper foil) helps even more.

zedsnotdead · Post by **zedsnotdead** » Mon Jan 09, 2012 12:40 pm

louis cyfer wrote:shielding helps. copper works better than aluminum for the cavity, and am aluminum plate instead of foil on the pickguard (even copper foil) helps even more.

If we are talking about conductivity (and related resistivity) of both materials, yes. Copper is better by a tiny margin. I can assure that for the purpose of shielding there is no noticeable difference at all, but your money-pocket will surely feel the weight difference

louis cyfer · Post by **louis cyfer** » Mon Jan 09, 2012 3:05 pm

zedsnotdead wrote:
louis cyfer wrote:shielding helps. copper works better than aluminum for the cavity, and am aluminum plate instead of foil on the pickguard (even copper foil) helps even more.
If we are talking about conductivity (and related resistivity) of both materials, yes. Copper is better by a tiny margin. I can assure that for the purpose of shielding there is no noticeable difference at all, but your money-pocket will surely feel the weight difference

well, the assurance did not do it for me. the aluminum foil shielding did not do it for me, the copper ended up working much better. not just tape, but copper sheeting actually. and the aluminum foil shield on the back of the pickguard was almost entirely useless, the full aluminum pickguard shield from aluminum sheeting did that job best actually.

sickbutnottired · Post by **sickbutnottired** » Mon Jan 09, 2012 3:50 pm

louis cyfer wrote:
zedsnotdead wrote:
louis cyfer wrote:shielding helps. copper works better than aluminum for the cavity, and am aluminum plate instead of foil on the pickguard (even copper foil) helps even more.
If we are talking about conductivity (and related resistivity) of both materials, yes. Copper is better by a tiny margin. I can assure that for the purpose of shielding there is no noticeable difference at all, but your money-pocket will surely feel the weight difference
well, the assurance did not do it for me. the aluminum foil shielding did not do it for me, the copper ended up working much better. not just tape, but copper sheeting actually. and the aluminum foil shield on the back of the pickguard was almost entirely useless, the full aluminum pickguard shield from aluminum sheeting did that job best actually.

Louis, I am thinking that your experimental observations might be due the quality of the conductors used in joints. I was fooling around with this on a mexi strat using HVAC tape, and got a lot better results if I built a good mechanical joint between rows of tape, instead of just taping a sheet together.

Did you ground your aluminum pick-guard plate? I know pick guard shielding can matter, but I am not totally sure why!

louis cyfer · Post by **louis cyfer** » Mon Jan 09, 2012 4:01 pm

i was using mechanical joints, folding, interlocking etc. of course with the copper, you solder it. it's original fender thick aluminum plates (late 50's i believe), it looks ground, but i didn't do it.

zedsnotdead · Post by **zedsnotdead** » Mon Jan 09, 2012 4:14 pm

louis cyfer wrote:well, the assurance did not do it for me. the aluminum foil shielding did not do it for me, the copper ended up working much better. not just tape, but copper sheeting actually. and the aluminum foil shield on the back of the pickguard was almost entirely useless, the full aluminum pickguard shield from aluminum sheeting did that job best actually.

Well, that is odd to say the least. I have my S500 all shield with Aluminium and is dead quiet.
You could have missed a connecting joint between all the foils and pickguard, and that single spot could certainly influence the shielding efficiency....
But what matters is that now you solved it and it rocks

louis cyfer · Post by **louis cyfer** » Mon Jan 09, 2012 7:06 pm

zedsnotdead wrote:
louis cyfer wrote:well, the assurance did not do it for me. the aluminum foil shielding did not do it for me, the copper ended up working much better. not just tape, but copper sheeting actually. and the aluminum foil shield on the back of the pickguard was almost entirely useless, the full aluminum pickguard shield from aluminum sheeting did that job best actually.
Well, that is odd to say the least. I have my S500 all shield with Aluminium and is dead quiet.
You could have missed a connecting joint between all the foils and pickguard, and that single spot could certainly influence the shielding efficiency....
But what matters is that now you solved it and it rocks

the mfd pups are naturally a little quieter than regular pups, less windings, so that could have been the difference. i had the connection good, tested the connductivity everywhere, didn't find any deadspots.

Michael-GnL-Michael · Mon Jan 09, 2012 10:12 pm

Louis,

Did you test the guitar in different environments before concluding it wasn't working before going with what you ended up with?

There has to be an explanation for why your guitar required something different when the other approach has worked for other people.

louis cyfer · Post by **louis cyfer** » Mon Jan 09, 2012 11:26 pm

Michael-GnL-Michael wrote:Louis,

Did you test the guitar in different environments before concluding it wasn't working before going with what you ended up with?

There has to be an explanation for why your guitar required something different when the other approach has worked for other people.

yes. it worked, just didn't work as well i wanted it to. most shielding jobs i have seen don't work as well as i like. this is what it supposed to look like, how many have you seen actually look like this? there was also a big difference on shielding the pickguard. you need a plate. copper and aluminum actually have different shielding qualities, and putting copper in the cavity and an aluminum plate in the front has worked best so far.

Elwood · Post by **Elwood** » Mon Jan 09, 2012 11:38 pm

nice...
Any noticable difference in tone with the copper/aluminum plating vs foil tape?

Michael-GnL-Michael · Mon Jan 09, 2012 11:57 pm

louis cyfer wrote:...yes. it worked, just didn't work as well i wanted it to. most shielding jobs i have seen don't work as well as i like. this is what it supposed to look like, how many have you seen actually look like this? there was also a big difference on shielding the pickguard. you need a plate. copper and aluminum actually have different shielding qualities, and putting copper in the cavity and an aluminum plate in the front has worked best so far.

I am not sure what you are asking. Depending on what you are referring to I have seen similar shielding jobs. That looks like many of the copper jobs I have seen though at least a couple were not as smooth. I recall one where the soldering was done consistently sealing all seams not just spot dawbs. What is unique or special to you? Is it the thickness? The smoothness? The soldering joints? Any or all of these?

There is talk on this forum about Leo originally using metal pickguards and abandoning them because it had an undesirable effect on tone. Did the "plate" alter your tone?

louis cyfer · Post by **louis cyfer** » Tue Jan 10, 2012 12:34 am

it is the thickness. it is not just tape. it is actually sheeting. you do not see that often. it is copper sheeting cut to size. there is no need to seal all the seems. metal pickguards would definitely alter the tone. that is a bit more mass than the aluminum plate. i did not notice a difference in tone from the aluminum plate. unless less noise is considered a difference. there is a tone difference between shielded and not shielded guitars though.

Michael-GnL-Michael · Post by **Michael-GnL-Michael** » Tue Jan 10, 2012 1:26 am

louis cyfer wrote:it is the thickness. it is not just tape. it is actually sheeting. you do not see that often. it is copper sheeting cut to size. there is no need to seal all the seems. metal pickguards would definitely alter the tone. that is a bit more mass than the aluminum plate. i did not notice a difference in tone from the aluminum plate. unless less noise is considered a difference. there is a tone difference between shielded and not shielded guitars though.

What do you think about two layers of tape? Cutting sheet metal is not within my reach. I do not have a workshop or garage. I am happy that this thread has been resurrected because I may keep my stock pickups if I can cut the noise down to around 10%. By this I mean I want to cut the noise down by 80-90% leaving no more than 20%, preferably 10% or even less. Is this realistic? Sounded like others in this thread got it down to nothing. I did not think that was possible. One person's silence to someone else is still too noisy. Having seen a lot and ending up with that sheet metal shielding is it possible to cut it down to 10%? My Legacy is noisier than my ASAT Classic. Just think of one of the noisiest single coil hums. What do you think I can achieve with shielding and the cluster ground thing?

louis cyfer · Post by **louis cyfer** » Tue Jan 10, 2012 1:13 pm

Michael-GnL-Michael wrote:
louis cyfer wrote:it is the thickness. it is not just tape. it is actually sheeting. you do not see that often. it is copper sheeting cut to size. there is no need to seal all the seems. metal pickguards would definitely alter the tone. that is a bit more mass than the aluminum plate. i did not notice a difference in tone from the aluminum plate. unless less noise is considered a difference. there is a tone difference between shielded and not shielded guitars though.
What do you think about two layers of tape? Cutting sheet metal is not within my reach. I do not have a workshop or garage. I am happy that this thread has been resurrected because I may keep my stock pickups if I can cut the noise down to around 10%. By this I mean I want to cut the noise down by 80-90% leaving no more than 20%, preferably 10% or even less. Is this realistic? Sounded like others in this thread got it down to nothing. I did not think that was possible. One person's silence to someone else is still too noisy. Having seen a lot and ending up with that sheet metal shielding is it possible to cut it down to 10%? My Legacy is noisier than my ASAT Classic. Just think of one of the noisiest single coil hums. What do you think I can achieve with shielding and the cluster ground thing?

for the legacy you are in luck. callaham sells a strat pickguard aluminum shield that works great. might have to do small trimming, i did that with a dremmel grinder actually on mine. it depends on a lot of things how successful you are, but you can eliminate a very large percentage usually. remember that hum and rfi are 2 different thing, so even when you have noise cancelling pups, having the shielding is helpful, because those only cancel hum, nothing to do with rfi. traditional design pups have an inherently higher noise than mfd's, that could be the reason for the legacy being noisier.

Michael-GnL-Michael · Post by **Michael-GnL-Michael** » Tue Jan 10, 2012 9:14 pm

louis cyfer wrote:...for the legacy you are in luck. callaham sells a strat pickguard aluminum shield that works great. might have to do small trimming, i did that with a dremmel grinder actually on mine. it depends on a lot of things how successful you are, but you can eliminate a very large percentage usually. remember that hum and rfi are 2 different thing, so even when you have noise cancelling pups, having the shielding is helpful, because those only cancel hum, nothing to do with rfi. traditional design pups have an inherently higher noise than mfd's, that could be the reason for the legacy being noisier.

The pickguard is the easier part because it is flat. I could do several variations if one did not work well enough and it would be much less of a hassle than trying variations with the cavities.

What do you think about using two layers of copper shielding tape instead of the sheet metal in the cavities?

What is the difference between a "plate" and a metal pickguard aside from a plastic outer layer? Once you cross into "plate" are you not in the realm of metal pickguards?

Ken Baker · Post by **Ken Baker** » Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:00 pm

Dang. All this over a little noise. Well, it can be annoying as hell. And Elwood linked in one of my articles (Thanks!).

Aluminum or copper doesn't really matter from the rather narrow standpoint of shielding out environmental EMI. One really is as good as the other.

But. (There's always at least one of these.)

That shield will only be as good as the connection to the signal chain's ground. With that in mind, I offer a few ideas:

1. Aluminum won't accept solder. This means that you have to come up with some sort of mechanical connection to ground. This could be via a star ground or physical contact between between a ground on the body and the back of the pickguard. This really isn't all that tough to do and is usually effective, but...

2. Electrolysis can be a pain with aluminum in some physical environments. Most times it works great. Other times it can get kinda crappy. Put it in contact with a dissimilar metal and electrical contact can increase in resistance. This is why there are very stringent laws in effect for aluminum wiring.

3. Using aluminum on the back of the pickguard (lots of manufacturers do it, including G&L) and connecting it to ground via a clamped pot or jack is generally going to be fine, but I'd make sure that ground is established from jack to all pot cans AND to the star (if you use one). Just to be sure.

I don't believe that there is any benefit to going crazy shielding every square inch of a pickguard. You're really trying to shield just the unshielded parts of the circuit. Something like this is probably all that is needed.

It's also important to note that no matter how well you shield the instrument, single coil pickups sticking up through all that pretty shielding are going to pick up and let you hear ambient EMI unless they have a hum canceling mate. That is certainly the way it is with my L-2500 in SC mode and only one pickup selected. Those big ol' MFD poles grab everything they can find. Also important is the environment; lighting, dimmers, certain motors, CRTs, etc.

Finally, I prefer copper tape for my bass shielding projects. It's designed for the task. The adhesive is conductive, so a small overlap is all that's needed to connect one piece to another. And I can solder to it. And electrolysis isn't a worry because electrical/electronic parts expect copper. No, it isn't inexpensive. My inner cheap bastard can get real active, but I'll spend a bit more to only have to do something once. I'll also spend good money on quality cables that reject noise every bit as well as my shielding jobs.

Cheers! I'll go back into lurk mode now.

Ken...

louis cyfer · Post by **louis cyfer** » Tue Jan 10, 2012 11:06 pm

Michael-GnL-Michael wrote:
louis cyfer wrote:...for the legacy you are in luck. callaham sells a strat pickguard aluminum shield that works great. might have to do small trimming, i did that with a dremmel grinder actually on mine. it depends on a lot of things how successful you are, but you can eliminate a very large percentage usually. remember that hum and rfi are 2 different thing, so even when you have noise cancelling pups, having the shielding is helpful, because those only cancel hum, nothing to do with rfi. traditional design pups have an inherently higher noise than mfd's, that could be the reason for the legacy being noisier.
The pickguard is the easier part because it is flat. I could do several variations if one did not work well enough and it would be much less of a hassle than trying variations with the cavities.

What do you think about using two layers of copper shielding tape instead of the sheet metal in the cavities?

What is the difference between a "plate" and a metal pickguard aside from a plastic outer layer? Once you cross into "plate" are you not in the realm of metal pickguards?

you can cut those copper sheets with scissors. that is the easy part. i am not sure how doubling the tape would work. the aluminum pickguard shield is thicker, much thicker than foil, but it is very far from pickguard thickness.

sickbutnottired · Post by **sickbutnottired** » Wed Jan 11, 2012 4:11 pm

Ken Baker wrote:Dang. All this over a little noise. Well, it can be annoying as hell. And Elwood linked in one of my articles (Thanks!).
.....
No, it isn't inexpensive. My inner cheap bastard can get real active, but I'll spend a bit more to only have to do something once. I'll also spend good money on quality cables that reject noise every bit as well as my shielding jobs.

Cheers! I'll go back into lurk mode now.

Ken...

Interesting, post. Thanks. And you are 100% right about cables, all the shielding in the world is pointless if you don't have good, shielded, cables.

zedsnotdead · Post by **zedsnotdead** » Wed Jan 11, 2012 4:33 pm

That's why I previously said in ...

zedsnotdead wrote:Mind that the amp is also a electronic device surrounded by electrostatic noise. Also the cable is like a antenna, the longer it is the more it "absorves" noise, even if its not plugged to guitar.

Good cabling makes a huge difference, no doubt.

Michael-GnL-Michael · Post by **Michael-GnL-Michael** » Wed Jan 11, 2012 9:25 pm

Ken Baker wrote:Dang. All this over a little noise. .......back into lurk mode now.

Ken...

Ken,

Do you line your cavities with copper tape?

What do you think about using two layers of copper tape?

louis cyfer · Post by **louis cyfer** » Wed Jan 11, 2012 9:34 pm

Michael-GnL-Michael wrote:
Ken Baker wrote:Dang. All this over a little noise. .......back into lurk mode now.

Ken...
Ken,

Do you line your cavities with copper tape?

What do you think about using two layers of copper tape?

cutting the copper sheeting is really easy. just scissors. there is no complicated shapes either, you do each flat side and the bottom and just tack them together. i actually think applying the tape well is harder.