Early Urethane Finishes at G&L

[Its_Him_Again]

Hello,

The common general "rule" states that G&L used lacquer till some point in late '84 or possibly '85. I have read the detailed threads here about it.

However, if you've been collecting old G&Ls for some time, you must know that there are some holes in this "general rule" as laid out here in those threads.

We do know that some lacquer colors continued to be applied for several more years after the supposed switch to urethane. Most, if not all Broadcasters were lacquer finished. Several colors of guitars with matching color-painted necks were lacquer finished in the mid to late '80s. I have seen some burst finishes and some opaque finishes that were lacquer, up to the very late pre-BBE years.

And I have also noticed that select finishes that fall with "the lacquer years" are urethane in every example I've examined. E.g. Clear Red and Clear Blue. I have seen these colors, in urethane, on late '83 and '84 G&Ls, which is what we have been told are the years when G&L was spraying lacquer only. Were these colors always urethane, from the time they were introduced...even when most of what G&L was spraying was lacquer at that time? Were these colors ever sprayed as lacquers by G&L? I don't know for sure, but I've never actually seen an '83 or '84 Clear Red or Clear Blue finish that was done in lacquer. I would love to be wrong, but based on what I have personally seen, I have doubts that the company ever used lacquer formulations of these colors.

And in what cases were already existent lacquer finishes continued to be sprayed as lacquers, even after urethanes started being used? Was it an issue of supply? If urethane was sold out, they'd buy lacquer instead? Or was it on a color-by-color basis? E.g. did simple colors that already existed, like black, red, burst, etc. stay lacquer, and only "new" colors use urethane as a binder? If so, how long did this last – i.e. when were these "old" colors finally get converted to urethane?

It can be a bit confusing to nail this stuff down. The only way I have found to know for sure is having the instrument in hand.

Thank you.

[Craig]

Hello,

The common general "rule" states that G&L used lacquer till some point in late '84 or possibly '85. I have read the detailed threads here about it.

However, if you've been collecting old G&Ls for some time, you must know that there are some holes in this "general rule" as laid out here in those threads.

We do know that some lacquer colors continued to be applied for several more years after the supposed switch to urethane. Most, if not all Broadcasters were lacquer finished. Several colors of guitars with matching color-painted necks were lacquer finished in the mid to late '80s. I have seen some burst finishes and some opaque finishes that were lacquer, up to the very late pre-BBE years.

And I have also noticed that select finishes that fall with "the lacquer years" are urethane in every example I've examined. E.g. Clear Red and Clear Blue. I have seen these colors, in urethane, on late '83 and '84 G&Ls, which is what we have been told are the years when G&L was spraying lacquer only. Were these colors always urethane, from the time they were introduced...even when most of what G&L was spraying was lacquer at that time? Were these colors ever sprayed as lacquers by G&L? I don't know for sure, but I've never actually seen an '83 or '84 Clear Red or Clear Blue finish that was done in lacquer. I would love to be wrong, but based on what I have personally seen, I have doubts that the company ever used lacquer formulations of these colors.

And in what cases were already existent lacquer finishes continued to be sprayed as lacquers, even after urethanes started being used? Was it an issue of supply? If urethane was sold out, they'd buy lacquer instead? Or was it on a color-by-color basis? E.g. did simple colors that already existed, like black, red, burst, etc. stay lacquer, and only "new" colors use urethane as a binder? If so, how long did this last – i.e. when were these "old" colors finally get converted to urethane?

It can be a bit confusing to nail this stuff down. The only way I have found to know for sure is having the instrument in hand.

Thank you.

It was Polyurethane and Polyester not urethane. See this post from Fred Finisher:

The following was originally posted by Fred Finisher during his Lunch Reports from June 25-29, 2012.
He was an employee in the finishing department from 1978 (CLF Research/Music Man/G&L) until Dec. 1985.

Today I will touch on the topic of finishing because this seems to be more interesting to most enthusiasts.

There have been questions as to how the finishes were applied and what was used that I would like to touch on.
For starters, let's talk about prep. Sanding is the most thankless job in the shop no matter what field you're in.
A poor sanding job will result in a poor finish and feel. A body or neck is shaped and finish sanded prior to coming
into the finish department. Depending on the species of wood, the next step is to final sand and seal or apply a paste
wood filler ( colored for Mahogany, Natural for Ash ). The filler was applied by brush allowed to dry then wiped off
across the grain with burlap in order to leave as much as possible in the pores of the wood. If this is not done, the
finish will continue to shrink into the grain of the wood and will look like an amateur did it. Once the filler is lightly
sanded the base coats can be applied after a sanding sealer is applied and scuff sanded.This is something that has
to be done very lightly at first or there will be air bubbles and other problems to deal with. Four coats of clear was
applied to create a base coat prior to any color being applied. This might come as a surprise to some but the colors
were applied over the base coats. They were not wipe on stains or sprayed directly on the wood. The base coats
until around 1985 were 100% nitro cellulose lacquer. There were no polyester or polyurethane base coats prior to
that time. After four coats were applied and dry, they had to be smooth sanded before the color ( or in the case of
natural ) and top coats could be applied. I will continue this process breakdown throughout the day. I hope you will
stay tuned.
Fred

Footnote: When I say no polys were used prior to 1985 I mean at G&L. The very first CLF instruments did have
polyester base coats which were discontinued because of check cracking.

To clear things up about what was used, all G&L guitars before around 1985 were 100% nitro cellulose lacquer finishes.
Around '85 we began to shoot a two part polyurethane for base coats only. Bodies that were made of Ash or Mahogany
were filled with a paste wood filler. This was a time consuming process but necessary to get the smooth finish necessary
for these guitars to look right. The mahogany bodies were discontinued early on when Leo became convinced that the
tone of these instruments was not as good as the maple and ash bodies. When this happened, the bodies in production
were pulled and destroyed so any early G&L's that are mahogany are from a small group that were completed prior to this
change. The bodies came into the finish department presanded by the woodshop but not completely sanded. The final
sanding took place in finishing and then they were either filled or sealed right away. A lacquer sanding sealer was used
for this. This was then scuff sanded before four coats of clear lacquer was applied as a base coat. Filled bodies had to be
coated carefully or they would get air bubbles that were hard to remedy. Once the base coats were applied, they would
need to be scuff sanded to remove the orange peel and grain that might show through.

After the sanding was complete, the color coats were done. If a body was to remain natural, it of course was merely
sprayed with clear lacquer. If it was to be colored the process could be as simple as spraying on a solid color such
as black. If it was to be a sunburst for example, you would begin with the yellow base coat over the entire body, followed
by the cherry red perimeter being careful not to get it too dark or light, then the last step would be to apply the dark brown
perimeter burst. The outside edge needed to be opaque but the face and back of the instrument had to have a certain see
through quality to it in order for it not to look like it was "masked off". There were variances in these finishes but most were
pretty consistent. The see through blues and reds were especially touchy because they could come out blotchy or too dark.
After the colors were applied, six coats of clear nitro was sprayed on. Sometime early on we began to make it a bit easier for
the polishing department by stopping before the last coat and sanding the lacquer smooth before spraying on the last coat.
This made it easier for them to remove the orange peel during the wet sanding process. Once the final coat was applied the
bodies were allowed to dry for two weeks. This made it possible to wet sand and polish the bodies to a high gloss without
worrying about the lacquer shrinking prematurely. The necks were sprayed with a total of six coats also but they were buffed
out much sooner because there was less lacquer to dry. Once we began to spray colors on headstocks, there were some
changes on how we got them complete. Although this looked better, there was a lot of wailing and gnashing of teeth over the
extra effort needed to complete them. We had a base plus bonus per piece system in place so any changes caused a lot of
heartburn with those of us who had to do the extra work.

After the bodies and necks were dry enough, they were wet sanded to a 600 grit paper using a soap and water solution. This
process took some finesse because a little too much water and the cavities and holes would swell. The buffing was done by
machine which required steady hands and focus or you stood a chance of having a high speed neck or body crack you in the
ribs or like one of the guys even worse, right between the eyes. Once the edges were polished, the top and back were polished
by a hand held buffer similar to what you see used for detailing cars. These finishes were scrutinized for defects because
nobody wanted any sub par instruments leaving the factory.

I hope this sheds a little light on what it takes to make a guitar look as good as it does when it leaves the factory.

Thin Urethane was used in the past Nearly Naked finishes used in some of the Custom Creations Collections and Special Builds
also use a very thin satin urethane finish that let the grain come through. first introduced with the "Nearly Naked" finishes in Honey Ale in the
2012 Special Collection and the Black Ice Collection in Black Ice NENA finish. Also the 2015 ASAT Classic Bluesboy "The Roses" Limited Edition
in Amber NENA finish.

When the CLF Research started building instruments in 2018-present, they all have Thin Urethane finishes.
Also, in 2018 the G&L Custom Shop was announced and the instruments come standard with Thin Urethane finishes except for the Metal Flake finishes
which are still done in Polyurethane.

Hope this helps.

[Its_Him_Again]

Hello,

The common general "rule" states that G&L used lacquer till some point in late '84 or possibly '85. I have read the detailed threads here about it.

However, if you've been collecting old G&Ls for some time, you must know that there are some holes in this "general rule" as laid out here in those threads.

We do know that some lacquer colors continued to be applied for several more years after the supposed switch to urethane. Most, if not all Broadcasters were lacquer finished. Several colors of guitars with matching color-painted necks were lacquer finished in the mid to late '80s. I have seen some burst finishes and some opaque finishes that were lacquer, up to the very late pre-BBE years.

And I have also noticed that select finishes that fall with "the lacquer years" are urethane in every example I've examined. E.g. Clear Red and Clear Blue. I have seen these colors, in urethane, on late '83 and '84 G&Ls, which is what we have been told are the years when G&L was spraying lacquer only. Were these colors always urethane, from the time they were introduced...even when most of what G&L was spraying was lacquer at that time? Were these colors ever sprayed as lacquers by G&L? I don't know for sure, but I've never actually seen an '83 or '84 Clear Red or Clear Blue finish that was done in lacquer. I would love to be wrong, but based on what I have personally seen, I have doubts that the company ever used lacquer formulations of these colors.

And in what cases were already existent lacquer finishes continued to be sprayed as lacquers, even after urethanes started being used? Was it an issue of supply? If urethane was sold out, they'd buy lacquer instead? Or was it on a color-by-color basis? E.g. did simple colors that already existed, like black, red, burst, etc. stay lacquer, and only "new" colors use urethane as a binder? If so, how long did this last – i.e. when were these "old" colors finally get converted to urethane?

It can be a bit confusing to nail this stuff down. The only way I have found to know for sure is having the instrument in hand.

Thank you.

It was Polyurethane and Polyester not urethane. See this post from Fred Finisher:

The following was originally posted by Fred Finisher during his Lunch Reports from June 25-29, 2012.
He was an employee in the finishing department from 1978 (CLF Research/Music Man/G&L) until Dec. 1985.

Today I will touch on the topic of finishing because this seems to be more interesting to most enthusiasts.

There have been questions as to how the finishes were applied and what was used that I would like to touch on.
For starters, let's talk about prep. Sanding is the most thankless job in the shop no matter what field you're in.
A poor sanding job will result in a poor finish and feel. A body or neck is shaped and finish sanded prior to coming
into the finish department. Depending on the species of wood, the next step is to final sand and seal or apply a paste
wood filler ( colored for Mahogany, Natural for Ash ). The filler was applied by brush allowed to dry then wiped off
across the grain with burlap in order to leave as much as possible in the pores of the wood. If this is not done, the
finish will continue to shrink into the grain of the wood and will look like an amateur did it. Once the filler is lightly
sanded the base coats can be applied after a sanding sealer is applied and scuff sanded.This is something that has
to be done very lightly at first or there will be air bubbles and other problems to deal with. Four coats of clear was
applied to create a base coat prior to any color being applied. This might come as a surprise to some but the colors
were applied over the base coats. They were not wipe on stains or sprayed directly on the wood. The base coats
until around 1985 were 100% nitro cellulose lacquer. There were no polyester or polyurethane base coats prior to
that time. After four coats were applied and dry, they had to be smooth sanded before the color ( or in the case of
natural ) and top coats could be applied. I will continue this process breakdown throughout the day. I hope you will
stay tuned.
Fred

Footnote: When I say no polys were used prior to 1985 I mean at G&L. The very first CLF instruments did have
polyester base coats which were discontinued because of check cracking.

To clear things up about what was used, all G&L guitars before around 1985 were 100% nitro cellulose lacquer finishes.
Around '85 we began to shoot a two part polyurethane for base coats only. Bodies that were made of Ash or Mahogany
were filled with a paste wood filler. This was a time consuming process but necessary to get the smooth finish necessary
for these guitars to look right. The mahogany bodies were discontinued early on when Leo became convinced that the
tone of these instruments was not as good as the maple and ash bodies. When this happened, the bodies in production
were pulled and destroyed so any early G&L's that are mahogany are from a small group that were completed prior to this
change. The bodies came into the finish department presanded by the woodshop but not completely sanded. The final
sanding took place in finishing and then they were either filled or sealed right away. A lacquer sanding sealer was used
for this. This was then scuff sanded before four coats of clear lacquer was applied as a base coat. Filled bodies had to be
coated carefully or they would get air bubbles that were hard to remedy. Once the base coats were applied, they would
need to be scuff sanded to remove the orange peel and grain that might show through.

After the sanding was complete, the color coats were done. If a body was to remain natural, it of course was merely
sprayed with clear lacquer. If it was to be colored the process could be as simple as spraying on a solid color such
as black. If it was to be a sunburst for example, you would begin with the yellow base coat over the entire body, followed
by the cherry red perimeter being careful not to get it too dark or light, then the last step would be to apply the dark brown
perimeter burst. The outside edge needed to be opaque but the face and back of the instrument had to have a certain see
through quality to it in order for it not to look like it was "masked off". There were variances in these finishes but most were
pretty consistent. The see through blues and reds were especially touchy because they could come out blotchy or too dark.
After the colors were applied, six coats of clear nitro was sprayed on. Sometime early on we began to make it a bit easier for
the polishing department by stopping before the last coat and sanding the lacquer smooth before spraying on the last coat.
This made it easier for them to remove the orange peel during the wet sanding process. Once the final coat was applied the
bodies were allowed to dry for two weeks. This made it possible to wet sand and polish the bodies to a high gloss without
worrying about the lacquer shrinking prematurely. The necks were sprayed with a total of six coats also but they were buffed
out much sooner because there was less lacquer to dry. Once we began to spray colors on headstocks, there were some
changes on how we got them complete. Although this looked better, there was a lot of wailing and gnashing of teeth over the
extra effort needed to complete them. We had a base plus bonus per piece system in place so any changes caused a lot of
heartburn with those of us who had to do the extra work.

After the bodies and necks were dry enough, they were wet sanded to a 600 grit paper using a soap and water solution. This
process took some finesse because a little too much water and the cavities and holes would swell. The buffing was done by
machine which required steady hands and focus or you stood a chance of having a high speed neck or body crack you in the
ribs or like one of the guys even worse, right between the eyes. Once the edges were polished, the top and back were polished
by a hand held buffer similar to what you see used for detailing cars. These finishes were scrutinized for defects because
nobody wanted any sub par instruments leaving the factory.

I hope this sheds a little light on what it takes to make a guitar look as good as it does when it leaves the factory.

Thin Urethane was used in the past Nearly Naked finishes used in some of the Custom Creations Collections and Special Builds
also use a very thin satin urethane finish that let the grain come through. first introduced with the "Nearly Naked" finishes in Honey Ale in the
2012 Special Collection and the Black Ice Collection in Black Ice NENA finish. Also the 2015 ASAT Classic Bluesboy "The Roses" Limited Edition
in Amber NENA finish.

When the CLF Research started building instruments in 2018-present, they all have Thin Urethane finishes.
Also, in 2018 the G&L Custom Shop was announced and the instruments come standard with Thin Urethane finishes except for the Metal Flake finishes
which are still done in Polyurethane.

Hope this helps.

A "polyurethane" is simply a finish that contains urethanes, among other things. The use of "urethane" was deliberate, to avoid specifying any one type of polyurethane finish (of which there are many). It's usually the term "polyurethane" that Internet folks take exception to, so I deliberately avoided it.

We have all read that Fred the Finisher post a thousand times. I allude to it, and others, in my OP. But I have not found it to be absolutely correct, which was the point of the OP – to discuss the exceptions to its content, which should be apparent to all those who have spent much time collecting pre-BBE G&Ls. All the reasons why are named in the OP. Namely, I have personally examined several 1984 translucent colored finishes that were thin urethane finishes. I have never seen a lacquer version of Clear Blue or Clear Red, myself, even on instruments that were made before Fred's transition date. But he mentions Clear Red and Clear Blue being sprayed in lacquer. The '84s in Clear Blue and Clear Red that I have held have all had very thin urethane finishes.

As for modern uses of urethane, that's not what I'm discussing. I'm talking about pre-BBE era finishes.

[derick]

I own a 1980 clear blue G&L, although it has yellowed to a very convincing forest green. I have patched some chips on it with clear nitro. Are you saying that the color coat on these might have been urethane, or the clear coat?

[Its_Him_Again]

I own a 1980 clear blue G&L, although it has yellowed to a very convincing forest green. I have patched some chips on it with clear nitro. Are you saying that the color coat on these might have been urethane, or the clear coat?

All of the Clear Blue and Clear Red ones I have worked on, or owned, the entire finish appears to be urethane – sealer, color, and clear. And it's a very beautifully applied, very thin urethane. Sealer I have only been able to examine on a few of them, when there are heavily worn patches on the back. The sealer on the rest are an assumption based on that, since the color and clear look and feel like the same type of urethane as the worn through ones. I am talking about perhaps 6–8 instruments total from the '83–'84 period (the period that was all lacquer, according to Fred). And several later ones as well...but we wouldn't necessarily expect those to be all lacquer if we were following Fred's info, so they don't necessarily blip the radar screen. It's the earlier ones that started me questioning.

I haven't ever crossed paths with a 1980. I am talking about 1983 and later Clear Blue and Clear Red instruments, specifically. Every Clear Blue and Clear Red I've seen has been from '83 at the earliest.

Your '80, having heavily yellowed, is most likely a lacquer version. Finishes containing urethane can yellow, but the yellowing is not often extreme.

What I am saying is that I believe G&L switched these colors to urethane-based finishes before Fred's "cutoff." I believe them to be exceptions to his rule. Perhaps due to exactly what happened to your 1980. Fred mentions these colors being difficult to apply well, also. Perhaps that also had something to do with them moving to urethane formulations for them earlier than other colors.

At this point, it's just a theory based on the only evidence I have held in my hands. I was hoping there might be someone here who knows more details about when certain types of finish materials were transitioned in and out.

Fred's post, in a nutshell, is that a urethane sealer came in in '85, and everything before that (except CLF) was nitro all the way through. He doesn't say when urethane color and clear came in, or on what colors. And he doesn't say under what conditions lacquer continued to be used after the switch to urethane sealer in '85. We do know that it did continue to be used, however. I have handled several post 1985 G&Ls that have lacquer color and clear.

[derick]

I understand, and am merely providing this information as a data point. I can't speak to 1983 or later.

My 1980 Clear Blue was made in August/September of 1980 and I am saying that it is lacquer. Portions of the finish were cracked badly enough to be chipping off and a bottle of clear nito nail polish seemed to successfully dissolve itself into the finish, as I expected, to glue things back together.

[Its_Him_Again]

I understand, and am merely providing this information as a data point. I can't speak to 1983 or later.

My 1980 Clear Blue was made in August/September of 1980 and I am saying that it is lacquer. Portions of the finish were cracked badly enough to be chipping off and a bottle of clear nito nail polish seemed to successfully dissolve itself into the finish, as I expected, to glue things back together.

I understand, and your observation helps. Thank you.

The early "Clear Green" G&Ls that I love so much were actually Clear Blue, originally, it sounds like. The switch to urethane on that color seems to have happened as early as '83, based on what I have held in my hands.

I'd love to be able to examine some other '82s and '83s, to try to nail down when this change happened.

[Challenger]

My 1983 F-100 and 1984 Cavalier are both a clear blue nitro finish.

[derick]

The early "Clear Green" G&Ls that I love so much were actually Clear Blue, originally, it sounds like. The switch to urethane on that color seems to have happened as early as '83, based on what I have held in my hands.

Actually, Green was on G&L's official pricelist up until Feb, 1982 and many green basses were manufactured, although many of them seem to have been refinished. When, in fall of 1981, I had decided to buy a G&L, every store that I went to seemed to have a Green L-1000 hanging on the wall. When the salesman realized that I was in the G&L market they would stand on their head in the attempt to sell me that Green Bass.

I have read on the internet, but can't now find it, the story that Leo, trying to establish the brand had provided many dealers a Red and a Green L-1000 before Christmas 1980, thinking that it would make a great Holiday display. The Red basses sold and the Green ones hung on the wall. I actually bought my 1980 Blue-to-Green bass thinking that it was one of these Green basses that I had refused to buy in 1981. Dave McLaren's log book confirms my bass was originally blue, as does the neck pocket and control route. This bass of mine comes close the the "beat to <censored word> and ignored" condition designation, the cleanup on it took a surprising amount of effort.

[Its_Him_Again]

The early "Clear Green" G&Ls that I love so much were actually Clear Blue, originally, it sounds like. The switch to urethane on that color seems to have happened as early as '83, based on what I have held in my hands.

Actually, Green was on G&L's official pricelist up until Feb, 1982 and many green basses were manufactured, although many of them seem to have been refinished. When, in fall of 1981, I had decided to buy a G&L, every store that I went to seemed to have a Green L-1000 hanging on the wall. When the salesman realized that I was in the G&L market they would stand on their head in the attempt to sell me that Green Bass.

I have read on the internet, but can't now find it, the story that Leo, trying to establish the brand had provided many dealers a Red and a Green L-1000 before Christmas 1980, thinking that it would make a great Holiday display. The Red basses sold and the Green ones hung on the wall. I actually bought my 1980 Blue-to-Green bass thinking that it was one of these Green basses that I had refused to buy in 1981. Dave McLaren's log book confirms my bass was originally blue, as does the neck pocket and control route. This bass of mine comes close the the "beat to <censored word> and ignored" condition designation, the cleanup on it took a surprising amount of effort.

Great info. Thanks. I have seen several of those early green Wunkays, and always wanted to grab one. Never happened, though. I hope it will, some day. What a great color. Good to know it was a "real" color after all.

My 1983 F-100 and 1984 Cavalier are both a clear blue nitro finish.

That is a good "data point" to have. Thanks.

100 percent certain, totally sure they are lacquer, right?

My '84 Clear Blue G&L is definitely not lacquer. No way, no how.