New (2019) ASAT Special - fret buzz

[RandomPrecision]

Hi, I just received a brand new USA-made Fullerton Deluxe ASAT Special that I purchased online. It has the fixed (saddle-lock) bridge, and modern classic neck profile with 9.5" radius.

It was (supposedly) setup by the seller before shipment. It seems reasonably well setup as far as I can tell, except for a fair amount of fret buzz on the low strings (the wound ones, E, A, D). Strings are stock 10-46 (which is what I normally use).

The buzz seems to happen not just on open strings, but on pretty much all fret positions. By buzz, I mean if I'm fretting X, then the string vibrates against fret X+1. If I pick very lightly, there is no buzz. But moderate picking and on up, it's fairly distracting.

Researching this a bit, one thing everyone says is check the frets. So that's question #1: do all recent USA-made G&L guitars get the Plek treatment? My spec sheet doesn't list the Plek technicians, but having looked at a lot of spec sheets on online listings, I know they used to list the individuals who did the setup and fret work. I assume if the frets were Plek'ed, and this is a brand-new guitar, the frets are unlikely to be the culprit?

Second, is this link still the best to follow for setup/adjustment tips: Set-Ups, answering some questions?

If so, one of the earlier paragraphs is a bit alarming:

The other thing that is a very common problem to check for is tongue rise. This occurs when the end of the neck slopes up, making the upper frets higher as you go up the neck, which will make the whole guitar buzz and will often cause fretting out on bends on the upper frets. If you hold the string down at the 12th fret and the last fret, it becomes a straight edge. Look at the distance between the bottom of the string and the top of the frets. There shouldn’t be ANY. The truss rod does not function on the upper part of the neck. You want the 12th fret to the end of the neck to be either perfectly straight, OR, ideally, have a slight bit of drop off. If you see space between the top of the fret and the bottom of the string, you are not going to get the best action and purest tone you can. If there is significant space, you are going to have severe buzzing/fretting out issues.

I assume by "last fret", that means the 22nd fret?

When I do this with the low-E, there is a very slight gap between the bottom of the string and the top of the frets. I don't have any way to measure this. But I did the same on my other two guitars, and they also have a very slight gap as well, and neither of them have quite the same amount of fret buzz.

I also laid an 18" steel ruler's edge along all the frets, to see if if there was a little neck relief. My thought is that if the ruler could "rock" (like a see-saw), then the neck is convex, and has no relief. That is definitely not the case. In fact, it appears there is a slight gap between the bottom of the ruler and the tops of most of the frets, which to me implies there is some small amount of concave relief in the neck. This crude measurement holds for my other two guitars as well.

For sake of argument, assuming the frets and neck relief are good, is my only remaining option to increase the action height? I generally like lower action, and the current height is about right for me. And, going purely by feel, my other two guitars have the same or lower action, without this amount of buzz.

For reference, my other two guitars are:

• 2016 Kiesel CT324. I believe this has a 14" neck radius, hardtail. Action height feels approximately the same as the ASAT. Virtually no fret buzz, unless I really hammer the strings.
• 1999 Gibson Les Paul Standard. Not sure about the neck radius, I believe it's a 12". This guitar definitely has lower action than the other two. I get a little fret buzz with open strings and aggressive strumming. But rarely any buzz on fretted notes or general semi-heavy or lighter picking.

Thank you for any thoughts or suggestions!

[Elwood]

my .02c,
There should be a slight relief as you observe, the string tension should pull
the neck forward just a tad so the vibrating string path is clear.
Perhaps the truss rod needs a little loosening. The neck wood may have
acclimated a couple times since it left the Factory.
You could also try a string set that has a higher tension, but I'd look at a quick tune-up of the geometry first.
Being Plek'd, it should find it's happy spot fairly easy (no fret work,etc.).

hope that helps...I'm just brainstorming

[Danley]

This time of year is when I would expect a lot of setups to go awry on guitars that get shipped between potentially freezing places, and other parts of the US that still get Summer weather. That said I’d contact the retailer about it first and ask what they offer to do, being they’re the ones who gave the alleged setup.

[RandomPrecision]

This time of year is when I would expect a lot of setups to go awry on guitars that get shipped between potentially freezing places, and other parts of the US that still get Summer weather. That said I’d contact the retailer about it first and ask what they offer to do, being they’re the ones who gave the alleged setup.

I contacted them, and got confirmation they indeed did a setup. But, they are in California, looks like a bit south of San Diego. I'm in the Chicago suburbs, so definitely a climate change. They didn't really offer to do anything, other than suggest I take it to a local tech. Unless they are willing to offer free back and forth shipping, I don't think I'll have them do anything, unless I end up returning it, as shipping costs would quickly get out of control.

There should be a slight relief as you observe, the string tension should pull the neck forward just a tad so the vibrating string path is clear. Perhaps the truss rod needs a little loosening. The neck wood may have
acclimated a couple times since it left the Factory. You could also try a string set that has a higher tension, but I'd look at a quick tune-up of the geometry first.

Definitely helps, thank you. I guess my main concern right now is, is there any chance I got a lemon, i.e. something that will always have problems regardless of setup? If that's the case I want to confirm as quickly as possible, so I can work with the retailer before that window expires. (I certainly don't want it to be a lemon, short of the fret buzz, everything else is fantastic!)

Assuming it's not a lemon, next step is just trying to get the best diagnosis and doing the most simple, no- or low-risk tweaks. I've never done a setup, though I've read about it multiple times, looks pretty straightforward, and it's a skill I've always wanted to learn. As it's brand new, I just want to proceed carefully, especially if it has to go back for some reason.

Either way, sounds like it's worthwhile to try a little truss rod tension tweaking. I assume I should be able to safely adjust up to a quarter turn in either direction.

Thanks again!

[Craig]

I suggest you check the current set up and see how close it matches the current factory setup, see: Current Factory setup for G&L guitars with hardtail bridges.

To answser your Plek question, see: Are all G&L USA built instruments still Plek'd?

Regarding the truss rod adjustment, you should have received a copy of the Double Action Truss Rod Instruction Sheet, so make sure to follow it.

Hope this helps.

[RandomPrecision]

I got the courage to make some adjustment last night. It's interesting how even the slightest truss rod or string height adjustment will completely knock the guitar out of tune!

Anyway, I played with adding more and less relief with the truss rod. I added a fair amount, enough that I could sense the action getting higher just from the increased bowing of the neck. That still didn't fix the buzzing, so then I followed this procedure: I removed relief until the open strings started buzzing, then slowly added relief until the open-string buzzing went away. I don't have feeler gauges or string action gauges (they are on order), but going by gut feel, I think the relief is right around where it should be.

Next I played with string height a bit, only on the low-E and A strings. First thing I noticed was the side screw in the saddle-lock bridge (the screw that holds all the saddles tight against each other) was not tight at all. It was so loose at first I thought I had the wrong size wrench or didn't have the wrench tip in far enough!

Anyway, I raised the low-E and A strings up quite a bit, way more than I would actually want them, just as a test. The buzzing I mentioned in my original post was still there, so I went ahead and put them back at my preferred height, and then set the intonation.

Now, having said and done all that... I went back to my other two guitars, and I guess they kind of do it to (the buzzing). I know that contradicts what I said in my initial post. I do feel it's a little more subtle/less pronounced on the other two guitars. But in general, I think the ASAT is noticeably louder than the other two when played acoustically.

I actually have a fourth guitar, an old MIM Strat, it was my first guitar, I keep it only for sentimental reasons. The action on it is ridiculously high, and I can even get that guitar to exhibit a little bit of the buzz I'm talking about.

The other thing I found interesting, the buzz effect got better or worse depending on where I actually plucked the string. It was worse if I plucked between the two pickups, or over the bridge pickup. But it got better if I plucked over the neck pickup, and virtually went away if I plucked right over the edge of the fretboard.

So now I'm second-guessing myself. Maybe this is just something all guitars do? And/or my technique is just that bad? And maybe it's not even fret buzz? I thought the strings where buzzing on fret X+1, when I fretted X. But watched the string and fret very closely while inducing this sound: I definitely can't see the string hitting the fret. I even tried using my continuity meter, where I had one probe on the string and one probe on the fret I thought was being hit. If it is hitting, it's too quick to trigger the continuity beep.

FWIW, the buzz sound doesn't come through the amplifier, and as long as my amplified sound is louder than the guitar's natural acoustic volume, I don't even hear it.

Interested to hear any additional thoughts you might have, based on the above.

Thanks all!

[suave eddie]

I don't understand why the dealer would find it necessary to do a setup on a brand new, from-the-factory instrument that just had a Plek treatment. They aren't very far from the factory and I doubt there would be any climate related setup changes. I can't abide any fret buzz.

[RandomPrecision]

I don't understand why the dealer would find it necessary to do a setup on a brand new, from-the-factory instrument that just had a Plek treatment. They aren't very far from the factory and I doubt there would be any climate related setup changes. I can't abide any fret buzz.

He said it's their policy, they do it on all guitars over $799. According to the spec sheet, it was made in January, 2019. So it's new, never been owned, but presumably has been in the store for the better part of a year.

[RandomPrecision]

Bump. I took the guitar to the nearest G&L dealer. He didn't offer much; at first he couldn't even hear it. He messed with the truss rod a little bit, but basically said it's just the nature of guitars with this scale length. This dealer didn't have any USA-made G&Ls, but I played a number of his G&L Tribute series guitars, they all had similar buzz like mine.

I think the setup is good. The height of the low-E at the 12th fret is 5/64 of an inch, maybe slightly higher, according to my string action gauge. I put a capo on the first fret and fretted the last fret, and used my feeler gauge to measure the distance between the low-E and 8th fret (to check relief): came up with about 0.013" or 0.014".

I spent some time researching this, not just here, but other forums as well. It seems to be a somewhat polarizing topic, with some people saying all guitars do it, and others saying no guitar should ever do it. But it's hard to quantify any of that without measurements of the setup and videos of people playing. I.e., if I play with a very delicate touch, it doesn't happen.

As I mentioned above, it happens on virtually all frets on all the wound/bass strings. But it's definitely the worst with the A string, on frets two through seven.

Here is a video I made that demonstrates the buzz/rattle.

Thanks for any further thoughts, ideas or suggestions.

[yucafrita]

Maybe a bit much of a buzz. Mines basically all have a fair bit of buzz on the low strings. As my guitar teacher oncew said, it you dont hear it through the amp, dont bother.

In your case, I 'd probably let the guitar sit some days to acclimatize, which is probably done now. Then I'd start with the standard setup as per G&L (links were already posted) and tweak it.

As found on the internet:

Remember T-R-A-I-N...

• Tune guitar to concert pitch.
• Check and adjust neck Relief.
• Check and adjust the Action.
• Check and adjust the Intonation.
• Noodle away on your perfectly set-up

[Elwood]

The video helps, good call.

more random thoughts:

Have you tried a fret-rocker or something like it?

Are they stainless steel frets? Those take a bit more elbow grease to get right and
a buzz would be louder than with nickel alloy.

It does sound like a fret buzz, though it wouldn't hurt to inspect the saddles.

With small incremental changes and observations I bet you'll be able to reduce it
a bit more.

[tomanche]

Thanks for the video. You wrote there that the low E is at 5/64" at the 12th fret.

I tend to set it at 6/64" (3/32"), largely to reduce that buzz. That's not an unreasonable height. (I found it decades ago recommended as a good starting point in Ritchie Fliegler's excellent The Complete Guide to Guitar and Amp Maintenance.)

Interestingly, I bought a slightly used Doheny V12 this year, and all the strings were set at 5/64". I found that the E and A strings buzzed more than I wanted, so I adjusted up to 6/64" and it improved greatly. This was a PLEK'ed guitar, although it's possible that the dealer or the first owner (who barely had it) may have adjusted it.

[RandomPrecision]

Maybe a bit much of a buzz. Mines basically all have a fair bit of buzz on the low strings. As my guitar teacher oncew said, it you dont hear it through the amp, dont bother.

I agree. My other guitars have a little buzz, but it's just so much more pronounced on this guitar, particularly that A string. And I can hear it through a headphone amp.

Have you tried a fret-rocker or something like it?

Are they stainless steel frets? Those take a bit more elbow grease to get right and a buzz would be louder than with nickel alloy.

I don't have a fret rocker. They are standard nickel alloy frets.

It does sound like a fret buzz, though it wouldn't hurt to inspect the saddles.

With small incremental changes and observations I bet you'll be able to reduce it a bit more.

I spent some time looking for other sources of rattle or buzzing: I'd pluck the fretted A-string to induce the buzz/rattle, then I'd go pressing and pushing on other parts of the guitar (tuning heads, bridge assembly, saddles, pickups, knobs, etc). Everything is nice and tight.

I've done a few more rounds of truss rod adjusting and action height adjusting, no luck.

Thanks for the video. You wrote there that the low E is at 5/64" at the 12th fret.

I tend to set it at 6/64" (3/32"), largely to reduce that buzz. That's not an unreasonable height. (I found it decades ago recommended as a good starting point in Ritchie Fliegler's excellent The Complete Guide to Guitar and Amp Maintenance.)

I took it up to 6/64". Unfortunately, that didn't seem to help. I really don't think I can go any higher and still find it comfortable to play.

I also posted about this over at TDPRI. Someone there suggested I had too much neck relief, so I tightened the truss rod. That seemed to "move" the worst rattling down to frets one through five or so. I used my feeler gauge, and at this setting, there was maybe 0.009" gap between the 8th fret and low-E with the first and last frets fretted.

Today I took it to another guitar shop. Not a G&L dealer, but a local shop. The owner did a round of string height and truss rod adjustment - he put more relief back in the neck. But he couldn't improve it either. So I left it there for a technician to work on it. We'll see.

As was suggested above, even though the frets were plek'ed, perhaps the climate change caused the wood to move enough to push some of the frets up? And/or maybe it needs a shim one way or the other in the neck? We'll see what the tech says.

Thanks again everyone!

[Danley]

I’d hope any decent luthier could get the action down/level frets if necessary; it is unfortunate you have to do it on such a new guitar, but the good news is that’s what luthiers get paid to do. Once they work the physics part out, your guitar ought to play as well as any other (and I would not settle for less.)

[Tooslowhand]

Is the neck twisted at all?

[RandomPrecision]

Is the neck twisted at all?

I don't think so, but I'm not 100% sure. I spent some time "rifle sighting" down the neck. I don't see any obvious twist, but I don't have any real experience doing this. If it is twisted, hopefully the tech will notice and let me know.

[RandomPrecision]

It came back from the tech. He did a fret level and polish, and a full setup. I called before he started to re-iterate my goal (get rid of fret buzz). But it came back with super low action, and now the buzz is actually worse.

I could probably reduce the buzz a bit (back to where it was originally, which is still too much, see video above). But I'm at the end of my 30-day refund period with the retailer, so at this point, I feel it's best to cut my losses and try again.

Frustrating, because I really love the guitar otherwise. But the buzz is just too distracting.

[waynerd]

I feel your frustration. I bought two new G&L Legacies since they started with the PLEK machine and the both buzz like mad. I sold the first one and now I will be letting go of my newest one. I really don't think the PLEK has anything to do with it. It's just my experience lately.

[notalk]

I really don't think the PLEK has anything to do with it.

Unless the PLEK is sort of a subconscious safety net, allowing the makers to pay a little less attention to the neck details because "the PLEK will take of it". I hope not, but just tossing this out. I always thought the PLEK was the icing on the cake, not the cake itself. And, while I've never played a PLEK'd neck, I have read a lot of posts saying the PLEK machine is not a substitute for a good setup and a good setup will produce the best playing guitar.

[Danley]

It’s unfortunate the luthier consulted couldn’t sort things out - nothing worse than taking a guitar for a repair and either getting outright told your problem does not exist, or neglecting to execute a meaningful fix (not limited to guitars, even more frustrating when it’s a car. Led me to the DIY route in both cases.)