The ASAT '59: A proposal

[tomanche]

Given that ASAT soapbar MFDs sound amazing in a maple body (e.g., Broadcaster, Trinity);
Given that ASAT soapbar MFDs sound amazing in a mahogany body (e.g., ASAT Jr., ASAT Super);
Given that the combination of mahogany body and maple top is a proven tonal recipe (e.g., Les Paul; ASAT Deluxe);

I propose the ASAT '59:

• solid mahogany body (not chambered; I would pay extra for the fine, lighter-weight mahogany; Collings Guitars has been building LP-style solid bodies [City Limits] that keep in the 8-lb. range total)
  flame maple top
  mahogany neck with Indian rosewood fingerboard (perhaps ebony or caramel ebony)
  OLS body depth
  Natural wood binding
  Rear body contour
  ASAT Special pickups (to overwind or not to overwind?)
  Saddle-lock bridge
  Cherryburst
  black headstock would be bonus
  Pickguard delete

I see nearly all this on the Custom Shop options except the mahogany neck (maple would be acceptable; e.g., Broadcaster, Trinity) and the black headstock.

Thoughts? I can't believe I haven't seen an ASAT (Special) type guitar with mahogany and maple body....

[neutralomen]

A note on "tonewood" for solid bodies.

Before you go down that rabbit hole, I encourage you to challenge some of the mythology out there.

In an acoustic guitar, the soundhole is the "pole piece" ie the strings vibrate and go IN to the hole. They're then colored and amplified by the chamber, so the back/sides/neck wood really matter. Then they come out the "speaker cone" or top, which of course matters a lot.

with solid body electrics, you have a steel string suspended by a nut slot and a saddle.

That metal string vibrates in mid-air. It travels into a magnetic pole piece. that magnet sends the signal into a wire, which comes out of a speaker cone.

Ask yourself how the material of the solid body's acoustic properties get INTO the magnet?

Sure, the wood and material may make the guitar more resonant acoustically, but for solid bodies, sustain is determined at the nut and saddle.

The only time the acoustic properties of a solid body can get into the pickup is in the case of very microphonic pickups. Non-wax potted old pickups that are noisy and microphonic may get colored a bit by the acoustic properties of the instrument. Even still, here are the things that determine a solid body's tone WAY WAY WAY WAY more than any acoustic properties of the wood.
-well-cut nut
-dense stable saddle with good break angle
-size/material of string
-distance from string to pole piece
-type of pickup
-quality/length of cable
-amp.

Way down the list you may add the tonewood IF the pickup is microphonic, which brings me to my next point.

ASAT pickups are modern. They're wax potted, shielded, and relatively quiet. Tonewood is more or less irrelevant when it comes to sound.

That said, I think you should base your wood selection on aesthetics and weight. If you want an "LP" style ASAT, go flame maple top, mahogany neck and body, and RW board. That would look nice. I'd also go ivory binding on the neck and top rather than maple.

I wouldn't overwind the ASAT special pickups. They're EXTREMELY hot especially for single coils. I have to put the bass side of the neck pickup in my asat special as low as possible to avoid crazy transient spikes. They sound amazing but if anything they need to be tamed, not made hotter.

also if you're getting the "pickguard delete," I'd go with an ASAT HH RMC with ASAT special pups. It may cost a bit more but you'll get that nice diagonal control layout instead of the naked tele control plate floating on the top. It will look like the now-defunct "asat special deluxe" which is what I have as my icon.

they can def. do black headstock and mahogany neck in custom shop. Just make sure to ask.

[Danley]

Ah I guess we are on a guitar forum now

I think the impact of 'tone wood' tends to be either over or under-stated for electric guitars. My understanding of the wood's impact on the vibration of the string is certain woods (depending on density/mass) will rob the string of vibrational energy at a different rate than other woods (until the string stops vibrating due to air resistance and per the laws of physics.) The body drawing energy out of the string primarily has an impact on the attack/decay/sustain characteristics of the guitar as read by the pickup - which as-mentioned an only detect whether and how much the string vibrates. By this same mechanism, there end up being differences in tone depending on the material used for the bridge/saddles/nut etc.

TLDR - The body and hardware all serve to 'suck' energy out of the string; the 'suck' rate being different depending on a number of factors (including materials used.) 'Resonance' is a side-effect of this; evidence that the string's vibrational energy is being absorbed/changed/damped. The pickup is along for the ride, and will respond to whatever changes in the string's vibration occur.

Search long enough and you'll find articles/videos of people who analyzed the sonic content of a guitar swapping body woods and found differences they could graph - search a bit deeper and you'll find people who either claim those analyses are flawed, or people who acknowledge there is a difference but claim it is imperceptible to the human ear (though there are also videos/audio files trying prove/disprove that too.) I hate to rely on anecdotal evidence, but I'd say based on my experience yes, the wood *can* make a difference in some situations - but it doesn't always matter, or mean a guitar of one wood sounds different from another in a significant way, or even that one piece of wood always sounds the same as another one from the same species.

[yowhatsshakin]

If you analyze it as a physicist, you see a system with coupled components where you have to take things like energy transfer functions, response curves, Young's moduli, density functions, and what not into account to get the overall frequency response and power spectrum. But yes, what Danley said. All of these systems influence each other and that is "... how the material of the solid body's acoustic properties get INTO the magnet". Are all of these effect audible? Some are plainly, for others you need some sensitive equipment. For sure not all electric guitars sound the same even if the same pickups are used on each.

- Jos

[yowhatsshakin]

On the original post, G&L build the ASAT Custom around 1995 which has a body as described.

- Jos

[Craig]

On the original post, G&L build the ASAT Custom around 1995 which has a body as described.

- Jos

See this post in our Rare Birds section: ASAT Custom (1996).
I would not be surprised, if you check with one of the Custom Shop dealers, they can get this one approved, with a Mahogany neck and natural
wood binding on the body.

[neutralomen]

I'm willing to accept I'm wrong but all this stuff about "energy transfer" starts to sound like pseudo-science. it is a high tension metal wire that breaks at the nut and breaks at the saddle. the amount of vibration traveling past those two break points into the posts then into the body, come on. it is minuscule. bringing your pickup 1/64th of an inch up or down drastically effects volume. the magnetic field is tiny.

having had many guitars, some with a really good nut and saddle, and some with a bad break angle/cheap material, I can say that I believe sustain is determined at the nut and saddle, at least where the pickup is concerned.

I know this is a debate for the ages, but I still have not been sole a convincing case how a sliver of rosewood or a sliver of maple on a fingerboard somehow gets into the tiny pole piece with the tiny magnetic field, outside of very loud microphonic pickups. even then the body's influence on tone is EXTREMELY slight if it is there at all.

I know the tone wood freaks will never agree but that's the side of the fence I'm on.

[tomanche]

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqF_nPbX_Ow[/video]

[tomanche]

Cool, thanks for jumping in, y'all. Thanks to Jos and Craig for pointing to the ASAT Custom. I know I've seen it on ggjaguar's site in the past, but forgot.

I'm down with the physics of the instrument, and I have nothing but admiration for physicists: I worked closely with two on their textbooks, and knew a third socially, and I find that physicists and astronomers are the most interesting scientists, with the widest range of interests.

But I think they are leaving something out.

Go back to my "Givens": those are based on my personal experience with a Broadcaster and a poor man's Broadcaster played side by side through the same amp/settings. Both my friend and I agreed that the two guitars sounded almost identical; however, the poor man's had a rosewood fretboard instead of ebony, and there was a tonal difference.

Then, I have an ASAT Jr. in mahogany (semi-hollow, which is a variable) and an ASAT Super (solid mahogany). The tone of these guitars is different than the maple-bodied pair above---and I contend that the difference is not solely the pickup windings. Furthermore, I have an ASAT 20th Anniversary---swamp ash body, different tone. You can play the neck pickup of the Super side by side with the 20th neck pickup (it's the same pickup!) and they sound different. Why? The body woods affect the tone.

I can go further with Skyhawks: I have a maple body Skyhawk (2nd generation with one-piece pickguard, rosewood fretboard) that sounds fantastic. [Compared to swamp ash S-style guitars I have, its tone is recognizably closer to Jerry Garcia's early and late 70's and all 80's tone---his guitars Wolf and Tiger had body woods that were primarily maple.] And the tone is different than my two swamp ash Skyhawks (same generation, maple fretboards). Why? The body woods affect the tone. And the maple fretboard has a different effect than rosewood. I also have a 1st generation Skyhawk in swamp ash with an ebony fretboard; it's quite close to the other two swamp ash guitars; but not to the maple bodied Skyhawk.

If the bridge/string/nut arrangement were the sole tone determinant system, then all the ASATs would sound alike. Likewise, all the Skyhawks would sound alike.

Jos, you have played many more variants of G&Ls than anyone here, and you have the physics background. How do you explain the tonal differences?

[Danley]

I'm willing to accept I'm wrong but all this stuff about "energy transfer" starts to sound like pseudo-science.

Not trying to change your mind with this post: Just clarifying - 'string energy' has to go somewhere, otherwise the string would vibrate indefinitely - That part is not pseudoscience, it does occur and the question isn't whether it happens, it's 'do different woods/materials do this differently.' So the conclusions you draw about differences between *how* materials affect the string's energy, and then how much you can hear that difference, are questions for the real scientists to answer and your own ears to interpret.

[neutralomen]

every guitar will sound different.

in my original reply, I gave you what I think are a list of determining factors for solid body electric tone.

the top of the list will be nut fidelity, saddle fidelity, and string type. those effect the sustain and tone going in to the pole pieces. it is literally a string suspended in mid air sending a vibration directly from the metal string to the magnetic pole piece. there is no opportunity for the wood to interfere with this process!

I grant that materials can effect the solid body guitar acoustically but that isnt how electrics are played.

anyway, after that it is pickup type and pickup HEIGHT.

in your example of the two "identical" ASATs, are you sure both sets of pickups were set at the exact same height to the 64th of an inch? because a distance that small will effect tone a LOT.

also, did they have the same string gauge and brand and were the strings the same age? if one set was halfway through its lifespan, that will effect tone a lot.

I appreciate your observation that the "only difference" was the fretboard wood. but was that the only difference?

were both nuts cut equally well? that makes a massive difference as well.

not being spicy btw just emphatic

[yowhatsshakin]

Jos, you have played many more variants of G&Ls than anyone here, and you have the physics background. How do you explain the tonal differences?

Basically as described in my original answer. For those thinking no energy is transerfered beyond saddle and/or nut, strum your electric guitar and then very gently have your cheek touch the body. No amp needed here. You will feel the vibrations being tramsmitted through the body. I could also present it like this: Why is it I sometimes here rattles of the truss rod? This should not be possible at all if all energy of the string vibration is just being reflected back and forth between nut and bridge saddles. Still we do hear it at times. Still we hear the amplitude decay. It is all because there is energy transfer into the body, neck, and hence other parts.

The (subtle) difference between the different tonewoods has all to do with their properties especially density, moisture contents, and any "vugs" (a term geologists would use related to the presence of (air) pockets). True, this is just one of many factors deciding the sound of a guitar and might not be the largest contribution. Doing a proper A-B comparison is exceedingly hard; one would need to vary these factors/inputs on one, single guitar. But after building electrics for almost 70 years now, one can use the ensemble of all existing guitars to make statement about the contribution of different factors. (BTW, this statement is very similar to astronomers/cosmologists being able to make statements about stellar and galactic evolution by looking at these items at different distances and hence age.)

Hope this helps,

- Jos

[neutralomen]

Jos, you have played many more variants of G&Ls than anyone here, and you have the physics background. How do you explain the tonal differences?

Basically as described in my original answer. For those thinking no energy is transerfered beyond saddle and/or nut, strum your electric guitar and then very gently have your cheek touch the body. No amp needed here. You will feel the vibrations being tramsmitted through the body. I could also present it like this: Why is it I sometimes here rattles of the truss rod? This should not be possible at all if all energy of the string vibration is just being reflected back and forth between nut and bridge saddles. Still we do hear it at times. Still we hear the amplitude decay. It is all because there is energy transfer into the body, neck, and hence other parts.

The (subtle) difference between the different tonewoods has all to do with their properties especially density, moisture contents, and any "vugs" (a term geologists would use related to the presence of (air) pockets). True, this is just one of many factors deciding the sound of a guitar and might not be the largest contribution. Doing a proper A-B comparison is exceedingly hard; one would need to vary these factors/inputs on one, single guitar. But after building electrics for almost 70 years now, one can use the ensemble of all existing guitars to make statement about the contribution of different factors. (BTW, this statement is very similar to astronomers/cosmologists being able to make statements about stellar and galactic evolution by looking at these items at different distances and hence age.)

Hope this helps,

- Jos

Yeah I already mentioned that neck/body materials effect the guitar acoustically ie. putting your ear up to it. So does touching it with your elbow. So does strumming the guitar, then touching it to another resonant surface like a table. The table will also have acoustic resonant properties.

The contention is "tone wood" when it comes to the electrified sound of a solid body guitar, which, I assume, is the sound relevant to all of us because nobody is playing their electric guitars unplugged.

All of those resonant acoustic properties you get from listening to the neck with your ear, how do they get into the pole piece?

Again, we've got a metal string vibrating in mid air very close to a small magnetic field. That mid-air metal string sends the primary vibration direction into the magnet directly into the signal path directly into the amp.

How does the resonant qualities of the body/neck material affect that sound? Nobody has ever explained it to me other than highly noisy microphonic pickups which I grant may have a non-zero influence on the amplified tone.

[glvourot]

Unplugged, yes definitely hear a difference. My SG's sound good( Mahogany ), the S-500 ( Alder ) sounds almost like an acoustic, my Asat not so great ( swamp ash, very quiet ) and the Alder SC-2 is OK. Plugged in ? I used to grab a certain guitar to play certain songs. I don't know , so many variables. My S-500 for instance, between the PTB controls, volume and amp settings and effects I can approximate almost any tone I want. I can't speak for others but I'll wager it always comes down to aesthetics. You can change so many characteristics once you add electricity it negates any difference you can hear unplugged.

[Danley]

All of those resonant acoustic properties you get from listening to the neck with your ear, how do they get into the pole piece?

Resonance would *not* in itself make a difference to what the pickup 'sees' from the string; rather, resonance is a symptom or side-effect of the amount of energy absorbed by the body from the string, as it vibrates. If there's a difference in resonance in two guitars (whether caused by wood or anything else) you could reason that is caused *by* the strings on each instrument vibrating differently.

EDIT: To stress, snce all the pickup really 'cares about' is side-to-side movement of the string (and also frequency which is defined by the note being played,) the meaningful 'differences' the pickup might see between two different pieces of wood are limited to the amplitude of of the string's vibration (loudness,) and how long it takes for that initial attack at whatever level to decay to nothing. This is possibly a variable factor too, if the materials involved respond in a non-linear way to different frequencies (ex. the wood more readily absorbs string energy at high frequencies than low, or vice versa.)

[FZTNT]

One must realize that the plucking of a string on a guitar is not necessarily a single event. If it were, it would be over in the amount of time it takes for the particular note to complete a single cycle. But it is a series of cycles of that note and any other sub frequencies created by the rarefications in the airspace. There is no pure note and no single passage from max to minus amplitude. It's not a single sine wave. So, if it were a single sine wave, or a pure note, it would not matter what the body or neck is made out of. It could be tin foil if that could structurally support the strings and everything else. Since it is a decaying series of tones traveling through the air, at some point it has to interact with the wood of the guitar and bounce back through the magnetic field of the pickups. Different woods absorb and reflect different notes in varying degrees. This is why studios have few if no parallel wall surfaces and are usually comprised of varying materials so as not to color the sound with reverberant reflections and thereby muddy up the sound. Think of a concert hall with near perfect acoustics compared to a National Guard armory with concrete walls. The slap back from the concrete walls sound terrible, right?

It's much the same with a guitar but the difference is minute. So, one would therefor have to agree that the tone wood has got to color the sound. How much and weather or not any particular person can hear or measure this is debatable but as I said, it has to be so, that't the physics of it. Otherwise a middle A note at 440 Hz played on a guitar would sound the same if played on a saxophone.

Tom

[neutralomen]

well yeah now you're talking about timbre created by vibrating bodies. a metal string being plucked will create a different timbre to a saxophone regardless of what the nut and saddle are glued/bolted to.

there are inherent resonant peaks in ant vibrating body ie a metal string. I see no reason to think those arent mostly determined by the gauge, age, and material of the string.

the rest of the "coloring" takes place at the pickup and the amps preamp section.

if you're saying that the solid body material can change the inherent resonant frequencies, and therefore the timbre, of a metal string suspended by two break points, maybe that is true but I certainly can't detect it.

a bad saddle break angle or a poorly cut nut slot will definitely dampen and therefore greatly impact the natural timbre of the string.

imo the reason a given electric sounds "dead" when strummed acoustically can mostly be addressed at the saddle and nut, although a more porous resonant wood will effect an unplugged guitar sound

[tomanche]

Well, let's leave aside for a bit whether the wood affects the string/tone etc.

My goal for this thread was to seek others' experience with ASATs in particular and the jumbo MFDs in different bodies, and whether the guitar build I proposed would be worthwhile, tonally speaking. Or, put another way: Let's assume for the sake of discussion that woods affect the tone. Please add your contributions regarding this build.

[WitSok]

I'll bite...

I propose the ASAT '59:
solid mahogany body (not chambered; I would pay extra for the fine, lighter-weight mahogany; Collings Guitars has been building LP-style solid bodies [City Limits] that keep in the 8-lb. range total) Sure why not!
flame maple top Yes, lovely!
mahogany neck with Indian rosewood fingerboard (perhaps ebony or caramel ebony) caramel ebony
OLS body depth YES
Natural wood binding YES
Rear body contour YES
ASAT Special pickups (to overwind or not to overwind?) I think I would overwind the bridge only.
Saddle-lock bridge YES
Cherryburst I'd prefer honeyburst
black headstock would be bonus YES!
Pickguard delete YES!

I think it would be a real looker. My tribute ASAT Special Deluxe has a flame maple top, but is on a light swamp ash (at least that is what it looks like). Not sure it affect the tone much, but hey - looks do matter!

Dan

[neutralomen]

Well, let's leave aside for a bit whether the wood affects the string/tone etc.

My goal for this thread was to seek others' experience with ASATs in particular and the jumbo MFDs in different bodies, and whether the guitar build I proposed would be worthwhile, tonally speaking. Or, put another way: Let's assume for the sake of discussion that woods affect the tone. Please add your contributions regarding this build.

Especially if you go with the saddle lock, it'll sound like a supercharged Les Paul P90. As mentioned above, if you're going to overwind, only do the bridge, and only do like a 2% overwind. ASAT special neck pups are untamed beasts!