1998 Comanche That Arrived with Undisclosed Damage

[FZTNT]

Hi All,
I would like to know the opinions of the forum on a matter that happened to me recently. I purchased a 1998 Comanche with gold hardware and when it arrived, it had undisclosed damage that did not happen in transit. The damage is the tittle finish cracks you often see in the neck/body joint on the body. See pictures.

So I immediately contacted the seller who said he was unaware of the cracks but had insurance with the post office and would file a claim. I did not feel comfortable with this as the damage did not happen in transit. When I spoke with the seller on the phone he continued to deny knowledge of the damage but was willing to refund me some money.

My question is: if I paid $1000 for the guitar which was in good shape otherwise, how much would you expect to be refunded in a situation like this? What other thoughts might you have?

Here are some pics.


See, it's a pretty nice guitar. There is a little ding on the top side but he showed that in a picture in the add but no mention of the cracks in the next two pictures.





What would you do?

Thanks for the input,

Tom

[docdynamite]

Can you copy and paste the seller's description.

[Danley]

I'll be totally candid: If an online guitar ad doesn't explicitly state a Fender style guitar does not have cracks such as those, then I assume that it does have those cracks (unless it's brand new or specifically photographed without cracks.) Those are present on 50% - 75% or more of guitars that actually get played and if that was a limiting factor in me selecting a guitar, I'd have missed out on a lot of amazing deals and confused a lot of sellers trying to return, especially if it already had a dent I knew about, as yours.

That being the case, I don't disagree that a guitar without those cracks has more monetary value, in particular if it's the only thing keeping it from being mint. Further I wouldn't myself pay $1k for a Comanche that wasn't mint. Sellers need to cover all bases with respect to disclosure. But I can totally imagine a seller regarding cracks as 'normal,' and not paying them any attention or noticing them. Verbiage in the ad is also important, but if that was something important to me I'd ask about it up front, because it's such a common thing to happen to guitars.

To answer the question, I don't think those cracks make greater than maybe $100 of a difference on a guitar that already has slight dents. Totally get it if others are more particular than me, no offense meant

[Tooslowhand]

A few years ago I bought a new S-500; Blonde, Birdseye Maple neck, from a very reputable dealer on-line. When it arrived, it had those same cracks, perhaps not as noticeable. I assume they happened in shipping, with the box getting knocked and putting some stress on the neck. I was pissed and really disappointed that my new guitar was not pristine. I considered sending it back, but it was so beautiful, played so well, and sounded so good, that I couldn't part with it. Every time I play it I check to see if the cracks got worse. They haven't. I'm glad I kept the guitar, and suggest you do as well.

[KenC]

Given the extreme cold we've been having on the East Coast, I wouldn't rule out wood movement during transit due to abrupt temperature and humidity changes. I had a sax arrive a couple of days ago, and even after waiting for an hour after arrival it was ice cold to the touch when I opened the case.

I'm with Danley that cracks at the neck pocket are pretty much a given, but I wouldn't count on them shifting the value more than $20 or so.

Ken

[FZTNT]

I'll be totally candid: If an online guitar ad doesn't explicitly state a Fender style guitar does not have cracks such as those, then I assume that it does have those cracks (unless it's brand new or specifically photographed without cracks.) Those are present on 50% - 75% or more of guitars that actually get played and if that was a limiting factor in me selecting a guitar, I'd have missed out on a lot of amazing deals and confused a lot of sellers trying to return, especially if it already had a dent I knew about, as yours.

That being the case, I don't disagree that a guitar without those cracks has more monetary value, in particular if it's the only thing keeping it from being mint. Further I wouldn't myself pay $1k for a Comanche that wasn't mint. Sellers need to cover all bases with respect to disclosure. But I can totally imagine a seller regarding cracks as 'normal,' and not paying them any attention or noticing them. Verbiage in the ad is also important, but if that was something important to me I'd ask about it up front, because it's such a common thing to happen to guitars.

To answer the question, I don't think those cracks make greater than maybe $100 of a difference on a guitar that already has slight dents. Totally get it if others are more particular than me, no offense meant

I get what you are saying and realize that this is common. Most of the time these cracks are disclosed either in writing or photographically. My point is I should not assume that all guitars have these type of cracks and when I see them I stay away from the guitar that has them. I need to be more wary in the future because I do not believe that I should just accept this to be the case. And, the fact is, they are just finish cracks and no more functionally disruptive than a ding in the Finnish elsewhere.

Tom

[Danley]

I hope you understand I don't mean to say you should lower your standards at all, just that in a pragmatic sense it's not something you can always assume when buying items online. I'm glad the seller sounds willing to work with you in this case.

If it's any comfort, it'll save you the pain of looking down one day and seeing that a crack somehow sprouted where there was none before It's almost inevitable at some stage, IMO.

Also: That looks like an awesome guitar.

[DugT]

Here is another thread about the exact same topic. I bought a usde G&L legacy Tribute that had an undisclosed crack in the same place. It was advertised as "Mint". The thread has lots of opinions about how to proceed. Coincidentallly, I'm sure the seller lied when he said he was unaware of it and he also considered scamming USPS insurance for the damage. http://www.tdpri.com/threads/crack-in-b ... es.779585/

[dhgleaves]

Here are my two cents. As you probably know, the Blue Book of Electric Guitars has a grading system for the condition of guitars. Although I lost my copy of the book, the grading system is online here https://www.axecentral.com/guitar-gradi ... s-307.html. So even terms like "good" condition have a specific meaning, and "good" means "Noticeable wear on most areas - normally this consists of some major belt buckle wear and finish deterioration, may include cracking, possible repairs, or alterations. When this condition factor is encountered, normally an instrument should have all logos intact, original pickups, minor headstock damage, and perhaps a few non-serious alterations, with or without original case." I once sold a guitar on ebay and described the condition as either good or very good (it's been a while). I also included lots of pictures. The buyer complained that I had misrepresented the condition, and that it had lots of little marks here and there. He was reacting as if I had described it as "new" or "mint", when I had studied the guide and used the term that I thought was correct. He ended up taking it to a local guitar place and they told him that, based on the standard guitar grading system, I had actually UNDERRATED it's condition (I could have called it very good or very good plus). He stopped complaining at that point, but it wasn't the best ebay experience that I ever had. Regarding the current guitar, if it was described as new, mint, or excellent, I think I'd raise the issue. Otherwise, I probably wouldn't. It looks like a nice guitar.

[y2kc]

I have been shipping and receiving G&L guitars since 1991 and have not seen this damage caused by transit. In my experience if these cracks were caused by shipping there would damage to the shipping carton as well.

These cracks are most likely caused by a someone taking the neck off. The neck pocket is a fragile area and the damage happens very fast.

Tips: 1. Do not take your neck off if you do not want to crack the thinnest part of the body.
2. There are no secret messages from Leo stuck under any neck.

As far as dealing with the seller, I do not know what to say. It is crappy risk buying anything sight unseen. I would be pissed as well.

y2kc

[docdynamite]

Can you copy and paste the seller's description.

I would still like to see the seller's description.

[FZTNT]

Here are my two cents. As you probably know, the Blue Book of Electric Guitars has a grading system for the condition of guitars. Although I lost my copy of the book, the grading system is online here https://www.axecentral.com/guitar-gradi ... s-307.html. So even terms like "good" condition have a specific meaning, and "good" means "Noticeable wear on most areas - normally this consists of some major belt buckle wear and finish deterioration, may include cracking, possible repairs, or alterations. When this condition factor is encountered, normally an instrument should have all logos intact, original pickups, minor headstock damage, and perhaps a few non-serious alterations, with or without original case." I once sold a guitar on ebay and described the condition as either good or very good (it's been a while). I also included lots of pictures. The buyer complained that I had misrepresented the condition, and that it had lots of little marks here and there. He was reacting as if I had described it as "new" or "mint", when I had studied the guide and used the term that I thought was correct. He ended up taking it to a local guitar place and they told him that, based on the standard guitar grading system, I had actually UNDERRATED it's condition (I could have called it very good or very good plus). He stopped complaining at that point, but it wasn't the best ebay experience that I ever had. Regarding the current guitar, if it was described as new, mint, or excellent, I think I'd raise the issue. Otherwise, I probably wouldn't. It looks like a nice guitar.

I have a subscription to the Guitar Online Blue book and it lists this guitar in the described condition (Very Good) as $800. I don't mind, and the book does mention a premium for gold hardware, paying a bit more than bluebook. So, I get what you say. The seller was going to file a claim with the PO until I said there was no way the cracks could happen in transit. He also mentioned what a pain in the ass it would be to deal with the PO as he had already started the process.

For those that want to see the specific description in the ad, here is the important stuff:

"It looks perfect but has one small ding on the side of the body as shown in the pictures. It has one tiny scratch on the bottom side that does not show up in the pictures.

The pics were of everywhere on the guitar except the neck area where the cracks are. This should have tipped me off right away.

I basically told him I would just a soon return the guitar and I made a cash refund offer otherwise and he did take a significant amount off the price and refunded me right away. So, I believe he knew about the cracks all along. But I ended up with a nice Comanche for way below blue book value.

I would like to find an actual mint Comanche for $1000. I also have taken the necks off of every bolt on guitar I have and if you know what you are doing it shouldn't crack the body. This is why Leo designed the bolt on, so that regular,careful and patient guys like me can replace the necks or other stuff like shims etc.

Learned my lesson here, thanks for the input,

Tom

[Fumble fingers]

Beautiful guitar still , that gold plating is the "Bomb"

[cho]

That IS a nice guitar! I'm usually not big on gold hardware, but that looks sharp. Even the neck plate is gold! I assume the tuners are gold as well...?

I know how it is to receive something that was not advertised accurately. It can be frustrating, but if you go through reverb/ebay/PayPal, then you are pretty well protected. I bought a 1987 S-500 online and when I received it, there was a bit of a gash on the side of the neck (also, conveniently omitted from the description and pictures). I did the same thing as you, and asked to return it. He then offered a partial refund (of more than 50% of the total price), which I gladly accepted. =-).

Glad it worked out for you. Congrats!

[FZTNT]

That IS a nice guitar! I'm usually not big on gold hardware, but that looks sharp. Even the neck plate is gold! I assume the tuners are gold as well...?

I know how it is to receive something that was not advertised accurately. It can be frustrating, but if you go through reverb/ebay/PayPal, then you are pretty well protected. I bought a 1987 S-500 online and when I received it, there was a bit of a gash on the side of the neck (also, conveniently omitted from the description and pictures). I did the same thing as you, and asked to return it. He then offered a partial refund (of more than 50% of the total price), which I gladly accepted. =-).

Glad it worked out for you. Congrats!

I didn't get quite 50% but close. I'm not really trying to call him out as a bad seller? Just trying to provide a constant reminder of the pitfalls that are out there.

Tom

[FZTNT]

Buzzer post script to this story...

While poking around looking for interesting guitars I found this, listed four hours ago for a very reasonable price:



It's on its way to my house. Had great pictures and assurance from the seller that it is mint other that the fact that someone polished the neck plate so much it wore some of the gold off. Other than that, all is perfect.

Now if only that Interceptor would appear...

Tom

[john o]

sweet comanche. both for that matter.
maybe the guitars will want to trade saddles...

[FZTNT]

sweet comanche. both for that matter.
maybe the guitars will want to trade saddles...

Thanks, and I already have thought about that. For that matter, does anyone know what type of gold G&L used for the gold plating? 14k, 24k etc? Has any of you tried to have gold hardware re plated and if so, what was the experience, cost etc?

Thanks,

Tom

[Danley]

Wow, looks great.

[JagInTheBag]

So, sell the one without the gold hardware after cleaning up the cracks as much as possible, plainly disclosing them. Ask the same money the previous seller did. You'd be surprised how many folks will give you the same dollar you paid. Burr out of your saddle, happiness sitting in theirs. ~Patrick

[blargfromouterspace]

That IS a nice guitar! I'm usually not big on gold hardware, but that looks sharp. Even the neck plate is gold! I assume the tuners are gold as well...?

I know how it is to receive something that was not advertised accurately. It can be frustrating, but if you go through reverb/ebay/PayPal, then you are pretty well protected. I bought a 1987 S-500 online and when I received it, there was a bit of a gash on the side of the neck (also, conveniently omitted from the description and pictures). I did the same thing as you, and asked to return it. He then offered a partial refund (of more than 50% of the total price), which I gladly accepted. =-).

Glad it worked out for you. Congrats!

I didn't get quite 50% but close. I'm not really trying to call him out as a bad seller? Just trying to provide a constant reminder of the pitfalls that are out there.

Tom

I'd take the one with the cracks for whatever you're out of pocket if you were closer

[FZTNT]

That IS a nice guitar! I'm usually not big on gold hardware, but that looks sharp. Even the neck plate is gold! I assume the tuners are gold as well...?

I know how it is to receive something that was not advertised accurately. It can be frustrating, but if you go through reverb/ebay/PayPal, then you are pretty well protected. I bought a 1987 S-500 online and when I received it, there was a bit of a gash on the side of the neck (also, conveniently omitted from the description and pictures). I did the same thing as you, and asked to return it. He then offered a partial refund (of more than 50% of the total price), which I gladly accepted. =-).

Glad it worked out for you. Congrats!

I didn't get quite 50% but close. I'm not really trying to call him out as a bad seller? Just trying to provide a constant reminder of the pitfalls that are out there.

Tom

I'd take the one with the cracks for whatever you're out of pocket if you were closer

I'm eventually going to put it on reverb and perhaps this market place. Wish the other one had the Ebony board though.

Tom

[Danley]

I like maple better on that guitar; makes the gold pop more

[FZTNT]

I like maple better on that guitar; makes the gold pop more

I hear you and the one I really wanted but got away had a real sweet Birds Eye neck with gun oil tint. But, I snoozed and I loosed.

Check it out...



Tom

[FZTNT]

So here is an update on these two Comanches.

I finally got around to taking the second Comanche apart to see what it would take to get the gold re-plated where a previous owner had polished the hell out of it and wore the gold off in several places. I think you can see it in the pic with the guitar in the case earlier in the post. other than that, this guitar is in mint condition. After taking the pick guard off I was very pleasantly surprised to find out that it is a 2002 NAMM show guitar. Sweet, huh?

Here's some pics:





So the question is, who are the signatures on the neck heel?

Anyway, looking forward to opening up the other one with the Ebony board to see what gems reside under the PG and neck.

Tom

[Danley]

Wow, cool. Not many other guitar brands that can give pleasant surprises like that, with as much frequency as a G&L.