Tue Jun 19, 2012 2:11 pm
Tue Jun 19, 2012 2:36 pm
Wed Jun 20, 2012 1:18 pm
Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:51 pm
Wed Jun 20, 2012 3:57 pm
Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:26 pm
asantange wrote:Thanks for the tip Louis.
I was hoping to find an alternative to getting an instructor, my last instructor was just teaching me songs and I didn't think it really helped my overall knowledge/ability. So I was hoping to use a bit of an aid to refer to when I'm in my room jamming.
But I'll definitely look into other instructors in my area again. I fear that I'm becoming a person that can play songs on my guitar as oppose to knowing how to really play the guitar.
Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:47 pm
asantange wrote:Thanks for the tip Louis.
But I'll definitely look into other instructors in my area again. I fear that I'm becoming a person that can play songs on my guitar as oppose to knowing how to really play the guitar.
Thu Jun 21, 2012 6:05 pm
Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:36 pm
asantange wrote:Again, thank you all for your help.
I'll definitely look into the CAGED method,
Fri Jun 22, 2012 12:05 am
meowmix wrote:asantange wrote:Again, thank you all for your help.
I'll definitely look into the CAGED method,
CAGED is the worst system ever. It invites more confusion into the mix.
Stay away from those who teach it.
If you are serious about learning, you are going to have to pay $$$ to get a good teacher.
I have well over 100 music/guitar books. They are used as a supplement to my studies with my teacher. Not the other way around. Get a good teacher.
Fri Jun 22, 2012 6:57 am
Fri Jun 22, 2012 8:58 am
Dr B wrote:Actually Louis (and meowmix) it was me that said the CAGED system might help and I will explain why your comments above are a gross exaggeration and slightly irresponsible in terms of advice to less experienced players.
What you both really mean to say is that it did not work for you, not that it does not work. That's perfectly fine. We all approach the guitar in a different way. We all have different skills and limitations and different aims from what we want to get out of playing.
I know lots of UK-based muscians that teach and used CAGED - with no problem at all. To say 'avoid' teachers that use it is ridiculous. As you are simply drawing on the fact that it did not help you. Its great to give your experience of it, but you need to qualify this as being 'your experience' and stop going around stating things as fact - when they clearly are not.
I'm just starting on CAGED and my comments are based on those around me that are more experienced and that have used it and said it was 'helpful'. There may well have been aspects of it that were less helpful - but the point was it furthered their understanding of the fretboard which has to be a good thing.
If you have other ways of acheiving similar gains via another route - thats great! But the merits of system A do not negate the merits of system B. Both systems have merits and although one may have worked better for you - this is not an objective test of the efficacy of the system.
Apologies for seeming a bit of a pendant, but I'm a scientist, and examining arguments and statements is what I do. Your comments above are 'over-stated'.
On a personal note - I find jamming over backing tracks to be an excellent way to develop 'feel' and technique and its great fun. This means i keep practising which has to be a good thing. However, with few exceptions - knowledge of the fretboard remains limited without complementary information.
Knowing what / where the notes are in different shapes and keys, and how to use them in the context of chord progressions (say to sound more bluesey) in the long term will be more effective than trial and error. However, it takes a broader effort.
Ultimately, I say to less experienced players - find your own way. This is what worked for me (blah blah) - but it might not work for you. Give it a try and see how you get on - but don't worry if it does not work for you and hence - find your own way.
Fri Jun 22, 2012 10:54 am
Dr B wrote:What you both really mean to say is that it did not work for you, not that it does not work.
Dr B wrote:I know lots of UK-based muscians that teach and used CAGED
Dr B wrote:To say 'avoid' teachers that use it is ridiculous.
Fri Jun 22, 2012 12:47 pm
Fri Jun 22, 2012 1:59 pm
louis cyfer wrote:i have not seen people become musicians with the caged. players, maybe. i have a degree in music, i don't need the caged, i, however understand how it limits you.
when you say it works for you, great. what you don't know is that going about it differently could and would have helped more.
unfortunately most guitarists don't even dream about becoming musicians. they also don't want to learn to read music, just tabs. take any tab and name the notes that the numbers represent. you don't even need the guitar with you.
Fri Jun 22, 2012 2:11 pm
meowmix wrote:
There are two ways from L.A. to Chicago. Plane or automobile. Which would you choose? How much time do you have?
CAGED is inefficient. There are better ways.
I bet you do. If I was a guitar teacher, I would wish all of my competitors teach CAGED. It brings a great advantage to me.
I don't think so. It is a litmus test as far as I am concerned.
Learn music the same way the Masters learned music.
Fri Jun 22, 2012 2:25 pm
suave eddie wrote:One thing I did early on as a self taught guitar player was to try to find as many places on the fingerboard as possible for the same chords.
I've never used the CAGED system but I can see why some of the others have criticized it--it seems to me a bit of trickery without actually learning what's behind it.
lessons from a good teacher can't be beat. Not sure how to find a good teacher--just being a good player doesn't insure a good teacher.
It all depends on what you want out of it. All levels of playing can bring great enjoyment and not everyone will be as serious a student as Lucifer here.
Fri Jun 22, 2012 4:42 pm
Dr B wrote:meowmix wrote:
Learn music the same way the Masters learned music.
I'm sorry, but this is arrogant nonsense. The OP simply asked for advice on improving their enjoyment of the instrument and you have them enrolled at the Royal College of Music in a flash.......do me a favour......
Fri Jun 22, 2012 8:49 pm
Mon Jun 25, 2012 12:14 pm
Tue Jun 26, 2012 9:46 am
Dr B wrote:
Also you are letting your arrogance show a little hear Louis which is not a helpful or particularly engaging tone.
Tue Jun 26, 2012 10:18 am
Dr B wrote:Hi Eddiesuave eddie wrote:One thing I did early on as a self taught guitar player was to try to find as many places on the fingerboard as possible for the same chords.
Nice points well made. This is part of the CAGED system as I understand it - though I have yet to really start on this path. It seems you got to the same conclusions through you're own route. But the need to be able to do this (extend your fretboard knowledge), is what CAGED (and you yourself) advocate.talk about misunderstanding what eddie said.
But thats a criticism of the way its taught surely? As oppossed to the system itself? I totally agree with you on that. I know people that have also argued against CAGED - but when i listen to what they say - its their tutor who did not ground it for them where the real problem is. But then - that really applies to all systems.
Tue Jun 26, 2012 2:36 pm
Sun Aug 05, 2012 5:34 pm
meowmix wrote:Dr B wrote:meowmix wrote:
Louis and I are not the only ones who know it is garbage. See what others are saying.
Would you invest with a financial person who filed bankruptcy? Would you hire a body builder/trainer who is obese?
Sun Aug 05, 2012 5:40 pm
meowmix wrote:Arrogance means "false sense of pride". Not to be confused with having strong opinions.
Sun Aug 05, 2012 5:58 pm
louis cyfer wrote:unfortunately in this case it is the system. interesting that you as a "scientist" (have my doubts as critical thinking seems to be somewhat lacking "hear") would recommend something that you have not tried, and at the same time staunchly defend it.
as meow pointed out, there is a difference between arrogance, and understanding something and having a strong opinion about it.
Sun Aug 05, 2012 6:07 pm
Dr B wrote:meowmix wrote:Dr B wrote:meowmix wrote:
Louis and I are not the only ones who know it is garbage. See what others are saying.
Actually, you dont 'know' it's garbage at all. Again with the over-stating. In your opinion it is - which is fine, and counts for a lot. But you don't 'know' and that's my point. By over-stating your case you make your position untenable.Would you invest with a financial person who filed bankruptcy? Would you hire a body builder/trainer who is obese?
These are actually both logical fallacies - often used in classrooms to teach students critical thinking. You think they make sense don't you? Well they don't. For example, Arnold has put weight on since his body-building days and is / or was recently, looking very podgy. Would I take training advice from him? Of course I would - because his body is not a reflection of his mind in this way.
The best football players don't always make the best coaches.....think about it.
Donald Trump was nearly bankrupt once, and a major investor here in the UK form our TV series Dragon's Den was completely bankrupt a few years ago. He is now one of the richest in the country. I would take advice from them as they arguable know the pitfalls more than most.
My counter-examples make the rest of your points redundant.
Please note, my entire point here (which some people around here refuse to grasp) is not that you are 'wrong' and I am 'right'
I am saying (to Louis) that he has over-stated his position, and you have as well. If you moderate the extent of the point you're making - it makes more sense.
Sun Aug 05, 2012 6:10 pm
turbo wrote:CAGED can be a great way to help beginning-to-intermediate guitarists make the next step in their playing. It does this by using shapes they are already familiar with (open chord shapes) and mapping them all over the neck. It's not a system to master every aspect of guitar and music, but one to open your mind to new possibilities and advance at a comfortable pace.
As far as the "best system", best for who? Many inexperienced players would see the sentence "play this exercise in all positions in every key and all known scales" and laugh.
Sun Aug 05, 2012 6:24 pm
louis cyfer wrote:you are actually correct that the best athlete is not always (very rarely actually) the best coach. but bringing up arnold is a mistake.
do try to bring up better examples,
that gifted people rarely make great teachers, as things come easy to them, so it is hard for them to understand the struggles of the average person.
Sun Aug 05, 2012 6:45 pm
Dr B wrote:turbo wrote:CAGED can be a great way to help beginning-to-intermediate guitarists make the next step in their playing. It does this by using shapes they are already familiar with (open chord shapes) and mapping them all over the neck. It's not a system to master every aspect of guitar and music, but one to open your mind to new possibilities and advance at a comfortable pace.
As far as the "best system", best for who? Many inexperienced players would see the sentence "play this exercise in all positions in every key and all known scales" and laugh.
Hi Turbo
Thats what I have heard from a number of people. The very fact that you posted - showing that one person has benefitted from the system immediately invalidates the arguments of meomix and Louis.
Other systems might be 'better' (though again, a judgment call) but if you found merit it in, for very little pain, then it worked for you.
Mon Aug 06, 2012 12:37 am
louis wrote:now you are falling into logical fallacies. one person benefiting (self perceived), does not necessarily mean it's a good system.
but is the return for the effort and time comparable to other ways.
i run into similar things all the time. people who have taken a certain path towards improving at something find out that they could have improved 10 times as much had they chosen a different path.
say, if you ask me for directions to get somewhere, and the destination is only a mile away (unbeknown to you), yet i send you on an 8 mile convoluted route, are those good directions? it worked for you, you get there, and if no one points it out to you, you may never know how much easier it could have been.
you are right, i probably did overstate my point, i tend to be dramatic at times,
....but it just surprised me that someone of your academic background would choose the caged system as their path forward.
ultimately with a good teacher, the system doesn't matter as much as the quality of the instructor, as he/she will take your current position, and your desired destination, and try to plan the best route to get there (even if it's within a confinement of a system, they will step out of it to make it more effective).
Mon Aug 06, 2012 2:20 am
Dr B wrote:louis cyfer wrote:unfortunately in this case it is the system. interesting that you as a "scientist" (have my doubts as critical thinking seems to be somewhat lacking "hear") would recommend something that you have not tried, and at the same time staunchly defend it.
Firstly, don't you mean 'here' and not 'hear' - odd to get that wrong what with you being a major guitarist and all that.
To claim his benefit is 'self perceived' with the intention to imply he might not be better is weak to say the least. You are now arguing that your opinion of everyone else here carries more weight than their own and their teachers.....and again here we are with arogance, ridiculous beliefs that have emerged through a fallacious process, held strongly and all the more ridiculous for it.
Mon Aug 06, 2012 7:10 pm
Sun Aug 19, 2012 5:49 pm
Fri Aug 24, 2012 9:15 am
louis cyfer wrote:asantange wrote:Thanks for the tip Louis.
I was hoping to find an alternative to getting an instructor, my last instructor was just teaching me songs and I didn't think it really helped my overall knowledge/ability. So I was hoping to use a bit of an aid to refer to when I'm in my room jamming.
But I'll definitely look into other instructors in my area again. I fear that I'm becoming a person that can play songs on my guitar as oppose to knowing how to really play the guitar.
instructor that only teaches songs is a bad one. i tell my students, i can teach you songs, one song at a time, or i can teach you every song. use songs to illustrate specific theory points, and after a couple of months i never teach a song again. i have given them the tools, i make them figure it out.