Cort guitars

[bloodied_fingers]

Have any of you heard of this: http://cortaction.wordpress.com/about/

Did my G&L Tribute come from one of these factories?

I guess I have been blissfully ignorant of the worker conditions and treatment in these foreign manufacturing sites.

[Elwood]

Thanks for bringing this to light.
A reasonable working environment with clean air most the time should be the bottom line
for any creature...even people.
I'll be making my own instruments from now on. As cruelty free as I can be ...and at least making a conscious choice when and where I appear to be cruel is a great thing.
Complacency sucks.
Info like this goes a long way to help . Thanks, I'll pass it on.



*This could be an opportunity for G&L to stand out from the crowd again;
though it would take some active participation in the problems stated in the article...
they could then proudly advertise how different they are from the other USA companies listed in the article.
( and for all I know they are...though I haven't heard of anything besides what you just posted bloodiedfingers`thx agin)

[louis cyfer]

i guess will have to start boycotting g&l too if this is true. at least until they stop doing business with these guys. i always knew they were not smart, but i never thought they were evil.

[bloodied_fingers]

yeah, I want to say that I have nothing to go on here other than this internet "research" no one at G&L has commented about it yet so for all I know they could be using someone else.

And I really hope they are not using these guys..

[louis cyfer]

yeah, I want to say that I have nothing to go on here other than this internet "research" no one at G&L has commented about it yet so for all I know they could be using someone else.

And I really hope they are not using these guys..

g&l does use cort. some of the new tribute models (ascari) are copies of cort models.

[helle-man]

.

Yes, G&L uses Cort. So do about a dozen other manufacturers.

Honestly, I don't know where you can buy a cheap guitar anymore that's not made overseas with cheap labor.

This is business, plain and simple. You have to buy cheap to sell cheap.

Eventually workers in these foreign countries will demand higher wages and guitar manufacturers will either find other countries, or be forced to raise their prices.

I don't know how you get away from it. Even in the USA, if you buy fast food or go to Wal-mart, you're supporting low wage businesses.

Will

[meursault]

everyone is responsible for that kind of things... companies, customers AND governments in those countries...

if customers boycott those product, it means less sales that will cause less production, less work, less wages, more poverty...

it has been demonstrated in other industries sectors that wages that fit life costs in those countries won't have a big influence on the final price... it reasonably must be the same in guitar industry... it's the same about labour conditions...

in fine, the responsibility is shared and the cause is money... but the two actors that don't have a direct interest if the things goes better for foreign workers are our industries and foreign political leaders...

[bloodied_fingers]

.

Yes, G&L uses Cort. So do about a dozen other manufacturers.

Honestly, I don't know where you can buy a cheap guitar anymore that's not made overseas with cheap labor.

There is a difference between cheap labor and despicable treatment.

Cort has essentially locked out a massive workforce in Korea when the workers there tried to force improved conditions.

I doubt very much anyone in their Indonesia plant is getting improved treatment.

You could look at how Gibson/Epiphone do it - by opening their own factory in China they get to control how employees are treated and how the cost and quality are controlled.

It seems G&L is just more interested in adding cheap stuff to maintain their bottom line - sweatshop labor be damned.

This is business, plain and simple. You have to buy cheap to sell cheap.

Eventually workers in these foreign countries will demand higher wages and guitar manufacturers will either find other countries, or be forced to raise their prices.

I don't know how you get away from it. Even in the USA, if you buy fast food or go to Wal-mart, you're supporting low wage businesses.

Will

To even compare the lifestyle of a US employed Walmart or McDonalds employee to those reports from this Cort company is ridiculous.

How to get away from this? We could actually all write, call and complain about these practices.

I for one, will no longer buy an instrument of ANY kind from the companies that are using Cort. I will write real-life letters to all the companies that I would normally patronize and let them hear about it.

I will also tell every local shop that I will no longer support them while they carry Cort manufactured guitars. Because only the mfg will only really give a crap when it becomes about the bottom line. If 100 or so people walk into a local shop and complain about this, then I think G&L will start hearing about it.

[ChinoGee]

I agree with Bloodied fingers: if it's true that the Tribute Line is built by exploited workers, I can't defend that, it's unacceptable. Remember the life conditions of the textile workers in Bengladesh, 1000 of them are dead recently... I can't be resigned to this killing "Business"; so I'd be very disappointed and angy if G&L directors had closed their eyes about that.

So I wish good luck to those korean workers, and I support them totally in their fight.

[Fumble fingers]

if conditions are that bad why don't they quit ??..... or are they forced to work there ?? ...... seems like if everyone would quit working at Cort they would have to do something ......

I imagine G & L doesn't have the money to just "open a factory" in china like Gibson , and of course not all factory's in china are great by any means not to mention you can face a firing squad (with bullets) in China

[bloodied_fingers]

if conditions are that bad why don't they quit ??..... or are they forced to work there ?? ...... seems like if everyone would quit working at Cort they would have to do something ......

this comment is not even worth discussion.

I imagine G & L doesn't have the money to just "open a factory" in china like Gibson

I would have to agree with that. G&L probably doesn't have the capital to open its own factory.

Private label manufacturing is not the issue.

Quality is not the issue.

Based on what i have learned so far, G&L has done one of the following:

1. Complete lack of diligence in selecting their contract manufacturer. Should I just believe they have never put feet on the ground at these facilities or researched the Cort companies abhorrent practices?

2. They know but do not care about the practice, and even PROMOTE them by choosing to court, open and continue a relationship with the Cort company.

Neither #1 or #2 make me feel good about dealing with G&L.

It seems to me like G&L had to know about the behavior of Cort, as the manufacturing of their guitars moved from Korea -> Indonesia + China correlates with Cort locking out the Korean workers. This makes me sick.

Its my own fault and I don't relinquish my culpability. I should have researched it more.

And I'm probably in no small part pissed because I really am a brand-whore/fanboy/etc so when I like a store or companies product I love to support them and I have been on the G&L bandwagon since I first picked up my legacy.

, and of course not all factory's in china are great by any means not to mention you can face a firing squad (with bullets) in China

I don't think anyone here has said that all Chinese factories are great. Many suck.

For that matter many factory jobs in 'developed' nations suck. IMHO any factory job would suck. No one is saying every factory worker should get a free BMW, corner office and a mahogany desk. These are always going to be low income jobs. I think everyone understands that.

I can barely stand going into plastics mold factories and the like (US, Canada, Mexico - anywhere). They are generally loud, stinky places filled with people doing the same exact thing thousands of times a day. I would be loathe to spend my life on an assembly line.

But that is not the issue here - workers deserve humane treatment, fair wages and the opportunity to request reasonable treatment without the threat of losing their livelihood.

[Elwood]

.
.... cheap.
Will

Nothing is cheap overall...look at the cost to creatures and the environment with that business model.

Great program last night on PBS POV about a couple chinese bloggers, not directly related to this subject
( or is it?) , however it shows some glimpses into the ways folks approach life , poverty, and chasing their dreams when there aren't as many options as we often have here .

How many 'cheap guitars' does this world need anyway, we probably have enough at this moment.

Communication is good, it helps dissolves confusion, giving us the opportunity to make better choices for ourselves and those we care about. Let's keep it up !

I'm finding I can express things with music (furvor,passion,etc.) that I can't with words, quality instruments
make that easier and much more fun ( you gotta be self-ish sometimes ).

elwood

[Darth Invader]

Guys,

That message was brought to you by the Korean Metal Workers Union, the management of which can just as easily be portrayed as uncaring, greedy capitalist pigs as they've done to Cort and Mr. Park. They're playing off all the ugly news we've all seen about horrible sweatshops supplying clothing to name brands and hope people will buy it. It's such an easy bomb to throw.

Cort's Korea electric factory was cool and Mr. Park was proud of it. It wasn't big by modern standards; it actually had kind of a quaint vibe. OEM people were coming through there all the time, checking out everything. My belief is that once the union got in they drove it into the ground, strike after strike. I'd often imagined I was in Mr. Park's shoes. I loved my factory which I'd busted my butt to get off the ground decades before, I didn't want to shut it down, but I realized I can't keep giving concession after concession, desperately trying to raise prices to keep up while strikes made deliveries to customers erratic. It accelerated so quickly it became ridiculous, and we realized the end was coming so we moved our itty bitty production out of the Korea factory. We moved it to Cort's Indonesia factory; I think it was in 2008. We could have moved it any of several major players in China with their own sophisticated factories, none of which are like sweatshops in Bangladesh. Cort has been a good partner and we don't jump around for the absolute lowest price. We value long-term relationships.

So now you read that stuff posted a couple of years ago by the union and think that Cort and all its customers are bad guys. You read that stuff about Fender meeting with the Korean employees. They don't want bad PR so they danced around the issue, but of course they can't win. It's all too easy to be painted as the money-grubbing capitalists who don't give a damn.

Balancing quality and value in making musical instruments doesn't happen by abusing workers. There's skill involved, and it isn't easy to cultivate and maintain the workforce. The world of guitar-making it tiny compared to making clothing, and a rickety sweatshop packed with sewing machines isn't even close to reality for making guitars.

Look, you might think I'm just making up crap that's convenient for me. Fair enough. Just keep in mind there's more than one side to the story.

Dave

[bloodied_fingers]

Guys,

That message was brought to you by the Korean Metal Workers Union, the management of which can just as easily be portrayed as uncaring, greedy capitalist pigs as they've done to Cort and Mr. Park. They're playing off all the ugly news we've all seen about horrible sweatshops supplying clothing to name brands and hope people will buy it. It's such an easy bomb to throw.

Cort's Korea electric factory was cool and Mr. Park was proud of it. It wasn't big by modern standards; it actually had kind of a quaint vibe. OEM people were coming through there all the time, checking out everything. My belief is that once the union got in they drove it into the ground, strike after strike. I'd often imagined I was in Mr. Park's shoes. I loved my factory which I'd busted my butt to get off the ground decades before, I didn't want to shut it down, but I realized I can't keep giving concession after concession, desperately trying to raise prices to keep up while strikes made deliveries to customers erratic. It accelerated so quickly it became ridiculous, and we realized the end was coming so we moved our itty bitty production out of the Korea factory. We moved it to Cort's Indonesia factory; I think it was in 2008. We could have moved it any of several major players in China with their own sophisticated factories, none of which are like sweatshops in Bangladesh. Cort has been a good partner and we don't jump around for the absolute lowest price. We value long-term relationships.

So now you read that stuff posted a couple of years ago by the union and think that Cort and all its customers are bad guys. You read that stuff about Fender meeting with the Korean employees. They don't want bad PR so they danced around the issue, but of course they can't win. It's all too easy to be painted as the money-grubbing capitalists who don't give a damn.

Balancing quality and value in making musical instruments doesn't happen by abusing workers. There's skill involved, and it isn't easy to cultivate and maintain the workforce. The world of guitar-making it tiny compared to making clothing, and a rickety sweatshop packed with sewing machines isn't even close to reality for making guitars.

Look, you might think I'm just making up crap that's convenient for me. Fair enough. Just keep in mind there's more than one side to the story.

Dave

Dave, I'm open to hearing all sides of an issue. Frankly, I think everyone reading this board would LIKE to believe you and continue endorsing G&L products. I certainly wood.

...but...

You say it is 'your belief', and I realize you have no burden to provide proof, but do you have evidence to that contradicts the claims of Korean workers?

Are you affiliated with G&L?

What are conditions like in Indonesia?

Are workers afforded a living wage, healthcare and treated humanely?

Thing is, I'd LIKE to believe you, by why is it that of all the Korean guitar makers the Cort factory has had these issues?

I'm not a Korean guitar making history major, but I can't find reference to any of the other big guitar making shops in Korea having these problems.

The KMWU may have greedy pigs at the top, lots of unions do, but there are a lot of poor workers at the bottom who have little voice in this.

I think it is logically inconsistent to claim this:

There's skill involved, and it isn't easy to cultivate and maintain the workforce.

while shutting down a factory and workforce that was initiated in 1973!

But maybe you have evidence that supports the claim that the KMWU was making outrageous demands?

I have done (admittedly brief) search into KMWU and I haven't found any frivolous demands in any of their press clippings.

[Elwood]

Just keep in mind there's more than one side to the story.

Dave

This statement "So now you read that stuff posted a couple of years ago by the union and think that Cort and all its customers are bad guys. " I feel gives some of us too little credit. I can see where you are in 'defensive ' mode, pokes like that only spur the offense/defense reactions that often can bring too much friction to allow for a productive exchange .

I saw the dates on many of the postings weren't current , I'm glad you are helping bring us up to date.
There are so many things that are cheap and made with an unbalanced plan that I find it hard to trust anything I haven't vetted myself. I don't eat fast food, go to walmart...I think I'll just burnish the hell out my guitar bodies until I know what it takes to manufacture the finishes I'd consider. It's a tough situation trying to succeed in a chaotic unplanned society that only sees a fraction of the truth.

Thanks again Darth for bringing more light to the subject here , this might be "old news" but it doesn't sound resolved ...I'm still soaking it all in.

elwood

p.s. I recall Leo had his shop shut down because of an open vat of MOTS dip for the Champ lap steels.
Does anyone at G&L ever talk about that when recalling 'the good ol' days ?

[Darth Invader]

bloodied_fingers - I am affiliated with G&L, an understatement at that, but I'm not interested into going around and around. I just wanted to add my point of view. You don't know who I am so for all you know I could be just some dude in cyberspace who wanted to challenge you. It's not like that at all.

Elwood - I guess I was kind of exasperated; it seemed kind of surreal.

Every once in a while I'll step in it since I tend to be direct. Sure, I could spend a bunch of time trying to figure out the best spin, but I'm not into that. I think I'm much better than I was 15 years ago when this place started, but I've probably plateaued and begun regressing.

Oh, the MOTS incident.. Things were very casual then, though people got hurt more often. Losing digits on pin-routers and other machines was not uncommon. Those drums could have exploded massively, killing everyone in the place and possibly nearby. By comparison, things seem so safe these days, though I suppose in the future we'll look back and think things were reckless and unsafe.

Dave

[bloodied_fingers]

bloodied_fingers - I am affiliated with G&L, an understatement at that, but I'm not interested into going around and around. I just wanted to add my point of view. You don't know who I am so for all you know I could be just some dude in cyberspace who wanted to challenge you. It's not like that at all.

This (for me) is not about being challenged or going 'round and round'

But I'm interested in factual discourse because, as I stated above, I REALLY WANT TO LIKE G&L

From your statement I read:

G&L considers the Korean workers complaints ungrounded, trivial and that their skill was insufficient to warrant continued efforts at labor talks. Furthermore, Cort and Mr Park are the good guys. We will show no evidence to support this, so just take our word for it

in this context that is pretty much the lamest statement I could have imagined.

I don't think, in general, self immolation is an act committed by people pissing and moaning about an extra smoke break on the second shift.

[Fumble fingers]

[louis cyfer]

Guys,

That message was brought to you by the Korean Metal Workers Union, the management of which can just as easily be portrayed as uncaring, greedy capitalist pigs as they've done to Cort and Mr. Park. They're playing off all the ugly news we've all seen about horrible sweatshops supplying clothing to name brands and hope people will buy it. It's such an easy bomb to throw.

Cort's Korea electric factory was cool and Mr. Park was proud of it. It wasn't big by modern standards; it actually had kind of a quaint vibe. OEM people were coming through there all the time, checking out everything. My belief is that once the union got in they drove it into the ground, strike after strike. I'd often imagined I was in Mr. Park's shoes. I loved my factory which I'd busted my butt to get off the ground decades before, I didn't want to shut it down, but I realized I can't keep giving concession after concession, desperately trying to raise prices to keep up while strikes made deliveries to customers erratic. It accelerated so quickly it became ridiculous, and we realized the end was coming so we moved our itty bitty production out of the Korea factory. We moved it to Cort's Indonesia factory; I think it was in 2008. We could have moved it any of several major players in China with their own sophisticated factories, none of which are like sweatshops in Bangladesh. Cort has been a good partner and we don't jump around for the absolute lowest price. We value long-term relationships.

So now you read that stuff posted a couple of years ago by the union and think that Cort and all its customers are bad guys. You read that stuff about Fender meeting with the Korean employees. They don't want bad PR so they danced around the issue, but of course they can't win. It's all too easy to be painted as the money-grubbing capitalists who don't give a damn.

Balancing quality and value in making musical instruments doesn't happen by abusing workers. There's skill involved, and it isn't easy to cultivate and maintain the workforce. The world of guitar-making it tiny compared to making clothing, and a rickety sweatshop packed with sewing machines isn't even close to reality for making guitars.

Look, you might think I'm just making up crap that's convenient for me. Fair enough. Just keep in mind there's more than one side to the story.

Dave

Dave, I'm open to hearing all sides of an issue. Frankly, I think everyone reading this board would LIKE to believe you and continue endorsing G&L products. I certainly wood.

...but...

You say it is 'your belief', and I realize you have no burden to provide proof, but do you have evidence to that contradicts the claims of Korean workers?

Are you affiliated with G&L?

What are conditions like in Indonesia?

Are workers afforded a living wage, healthcare and treated humanely?

Thing is, I'd LIKE to believe you, by why is it that of all the Korean guitar makers the Cort factory has had these issues?

I'm not a Korean guitar making history major, but I can't find reference to any of the other big guitar making shops in Korea having these problems.

The KMWU may have greedy pigs at the top, lots of unions do, but there are a lot of poor workers at the bottom who have little voice in this.

I think it is logically inconsistent to claim this:

There's skill involved, and it isn't easy to cultivate and maintain the workforce.

while shutting down a factory and workforce that was initiated in 1973!

But maybe you have evidence that supports the claim that the KMWU was making outrageous demands?

I have done (admittedly brief) search into KMWU and I haven't found any frivolous demands in any of their press clippings.

darth is Executive Vice President at BBE and either was or is executive director. so i think affiliated fits. in my comment i said "if it's true" because i know there is more than one side. i would still like to know about it.

[Fumble fingers]

if conditions are that bad why don't they quit ??..... or are they forced to work there ?? ...... seems like if everyone would quit working at Cort they would have to do something ......

this comment is not even worth discussion.

thats a bunch of Bull manure ..... if they are not forced to work there , that sums it up .... quit ... period ..... you know my brother in-law got a job driving a garbage truck , guess what ??.... he fricken quit !! ... he couldn't hack the smell , he worked there a week ( true story) , he didn't complain to management about the smell , should he have ?? ...... My take , if you can't stand the heat get the f*@#k out of the kitchen and don't be a fire fighter , it ain't for you ...... and they can take that bit of advice to the bank

if you really want to do something and you think its G & L's fault , sell your guitars on Ebay and donate the money Korean guitar builders foundation , if there is not a foundation then start one , maybe contact all the countries that send aid to korea and beg them to stop the aid until better work conditions are met , did you contact the korean goverment yet ??....

I also think Will's comment about Walmart was meant ..... if you buy clothing or such from Walmart then you are supporting some sweat shop in a foriegn country ... not about the person that works in the retail outlet

[bloodied_fingers]

heh, are you going to leave that comment this time, Fumble? But what are your sophomoric interjections, thinly veiled insults and expletives adding to the discussion anyway?

You seem to have a myopic view of the subject. A view which you have expressed multiple times while expanding your original sentiment only with interspersed derogation.

If you don't like this topic, or the continued discussion, you are welcome to ignore this thread.

I am not here to argue, belittle or denigrate anyone (including my favorite guitar company) without further clarification. However, the statement put forth by the only G&L 'affiliate' thus far is pretty impotent.

You keep referring me to contact the Korean government:

1. There have already been two civil cases decided against the Cort company, in favor of the workers. As far as I can tell the deep pockets of the corporation have escalated the case after both findings. Aside from that, I'm pretty ill-equipped to engage in Korean politics.
2. Cort makes the bulk of its revenue by selling to consumers through private label manufacturing, so it does a LOT of good to raise awareness among consumers outside the RoK. Don't you think?

Finally, one of Dave's main points was the age of these allegations, but they (the workers) are actually still actively protesting. SEVEN YEARS LATER!!!

Do you think people do that because they were getting jilted for a couple overtime hours here and there?

Do you think someone would light themselves on FIRE in protest if there wasn't, just maybe, something to all of this?

That said, I am in the boat with LC, still waiting for some more official direction either way. I am willing to extend G&L more effort than a few quick google searches.

[helle-man]

.

Wow. Pretty lively discussion on working conditions here.

I would just like to add this: India, Korea, Indonesia, China, are all emerging nations. They are having their growing pains just like America did at the turn of the century over a century ago. America got stronger from it, and these emerging nations will become stronger too as a result of worker abuse.

The big question is this: Who's problem is this? Who should be overseeing the workers there? BBE? G&L? The US government? The UN? God?

Or....should it be Korea?

In my view Korea and the Korean people have to solve this problem. It's THEIR problem, not yours, not mine. If you wanna make it your problem, be my guest. But don't think it'll stop there; There will be an endless procession of nations asking you to solve their problems too. Good luck!

Will

[bloodied_fingers]

.

Wow. Pretty lively discussion on working conditions here.

I would just like to add this: India, Korea, Indonesia, China, are all emerging nations. They are having their growing pains just like America did at the turn of the century over a century ago. America got stronger from it, and these emerging nations will become stronger too as a result of worker abuse.

My short answer to this: we know better now.

The big question is this: Who's problem is this? Who should be overseeing the workers there? BBE? G&L? The US government? The UN? God?

Or....should it be Korea?

In my view Korea and the Korean people have to solve this problem. It's THEIR problem, not yours, not mine. If you wanna make it your problem, be my guest. But don't think it'll stop there; There will be an endless procession of nations asking you to solve their problems too. Good luck!

Will

“You or I might think that at least one would show courage and put up a fight. But neither you nor I have suffered as they, and even we have born witness in silence to lesser ills under less dire threat. Yet, in the face of evil, to sit silent is an even greater evil. Complacency is ever the enabler of darkest deeds;”
― Robert Fanney

Which is worse; committing the evil act or sitting silently with the power to intervene while the act is carried out?

Yes, there are lots of pieces of trash in the ocean. I can not pick them all up - but I can pick up the pieces I find.

[Fumble fingers]

don't start a "bitch topic" and then get your panties in a wadd when someone bitches back

the first three sentances in my first post was not worthy of discussion ?? ...
well ,

1 ... the fact that they ( the workers ) could quit anytime they wanted too and the fact that Dave posted you can not build a quality guitar under those conditions leads me to believe this is a " Union " motivated law suit and not the actual circumstances ,

yes the Union is pissed they moved the factory from a non-profitable location , yes korea ( the country ) is pissed they lost more revenue , yes the workers are pissed they lost their jobs ...... sounds like Korea got a taste of what a Union can do for them ....

2.... as far as the on-fire guy .... a quote from Forrest Gump " stupid is , stupid does "


if you can't accept Dave post then boycot G & L and the Forum

[Fumble fingers]

.

[Aussie]

Interesting discussion, and hopefully it can stay objective enough to avoid being prematurely locked down.

With regard to the decision to relocate, Cort, like any other corporate entity operating in the global economy, has a right to make business decisions which it believes will be beneficial to the interests of its owners and investors. In moving production from Korea to Indonesia and China Cort has done much the same as many American and Australian companies have done over the last half century and moved production off shore to where it can be done cheaper. Our societies are adapting to those changes and so will theirs … in time. From a business perspective it didn’t matter whether Cort’s profits were big enough to offer a better deal to their Korean employees if Indonesian and Chinese employees would do it for a more competitive price. The ongoing judicial processes do however seem to be finding that the company has acted unconscionably in the manner it implemented that decision. Hopefully if that is so, the affected workers will at some point receive proper compensation and redundancy payments.

With regard to the management culture and working conditions within the Cort plants, I can’t make any informed comment on either the validity or extent of the statements from former employees. However, if true, I think it would be something that most would consider totally inappropriate and unacceptable in our own societies. As a senior manager in my own agency I would be seriously concerned if internal governance processes allowed that sort of behaviour from managers and supervisors to go unchecked … after all what other liberties might they be taking? As for quitting, sometimes and in some places where options are limited it is easier to endure than to walk away.

What to do about it. That's a difficult one but companies respond most to their customers. In the case of Cort their customers are not really you and I .. we are a step or two removed ... but the companies who outsource to them. The agency I work for buys a lot of equipment from overseas. In every tender we issue and in every contract we write, the supplier is required to warrant that they will comply with all applicable commercial, industrial, environmental other laws and all applicable international standards and conventions – and material breaches are defined as an event of default. Obviously I have no knowledge of the contractual relationships between the various companies linked to Cort, but I would take some small comfort it they were to include similar acknowledgements that as part of the business relationship the supplier is expected to conform with accepted norms of behaviours.

.. Oh, and if you are interested in understanding the extent that our lifestyle is supported by the oppressed and even enslaved visit the http://www.slaveryfootprint.org and take the test.

cheers, Robbie

[helle-man]

.

Q for Bloodied-Fingers: Do you work Fender or something? Seems like you sure have a bee in your bonnet over this.

I liked Fumble Fingers comment - "if you really want to do something and you think its G & L's fault , sell your guitars on Ebay and donate the money Korean guitar builders foundation ".

And I would add, hope that the money actually gets into the right hands after you send it. It's a little different over there.

Will

[bloodied_fingers]

@aussie - Great post. I generally agree with it. And being so far removed from Cort makes any kind of visibility difficult. It is also why its useless to go complain to them directly.

As far as labor agreements with suppliers many giant corporations have them with foreign manufacturers. Unfortunately they rarely are adhered to without strict external auditing.

I wonder if G&L has this type of agreement and to what extent it is enforced.

.
Q for Bloodied-Fingers: Do you work Fender or something?

EL-OH-EL

I don't have any effeminate issues - no panties in a 'wadd'[sic], I don't even own a bonnet; much less do I have a bee in one. I"ve been responsive here simply to avoid `qui tacet consentire videtur.` (he who is silent is taken to agree)

It seems to me the escalation has been in posts other than mine, correct me if I'm wrong. Have you missed my multiple statements to the effect that "I want to like G&L" ?

You don't like my questions so you respond with 'sell your guitars and leave' ?

"The lady doth protest too much, methinks."

Until I opened this thread I had nothing but good things to say about G&L. While I appreciate Dave's opinion it was without evidence.

I don't want a long debate, I'm not going to sleuth every fact and inspect every nook and cranny of this issue. But what I have found so far is pretty well damning of the Cort company. If that is because of these KMWU position their information just so, then show me otherwise.

Hell, if Cort is an evil demon but G&L has watertight labor rules in their contracts and does everything it can to audit the factories, that is another thing too. But nothing of the sort has been mentioned.

[Boogie Bill]

NOTHING in this conversation is going to make me give up my USA-made G&Ls, or keep me from spreading the word about the great guitars G&Ls makes.

NOTHING in this conversation is going to make give up my Korean-made Ibanez guitars...out of guilt or in protest or support for the Korean labor movement.

NOTHING in this conversation is going to make me want to buy, or not buy, a G&L Tribute. I will judge each guitar on its merits. I am a small businessman, my business is making music, and my obligation is to making a living. I get to decide for me what is appropriate for my business...and no one else.

And finally..when is someone going to mention North Korea? Jeez, talk about oppressed workers...imagine how long that protest would last. LOL! A corrupt government, a nation of starving people, and their threats of nuclear war...and you want to bitch about the SOUTH??? This is laughable...

Trust me...you want to have a dialog about Korea..you'd better start thinking about the North sticking a nuke onboard five ships and parking them in the harbors of Houston, New Orleans, New York, LA and San Francisco. That, boys...is a REAL THREAT. Trust me, I know things...they don't need an ICBM.

Then you'll really have something to whine about.

Bill

[helle-man]

.

Amen, Bill. Amen.

WR

[louis cyfer]

fumble, it looks like you don't appreciate how good the conditions are in the u.s. for workers. and they got like that by people forcing the issue. i think people deserve a safe working environment and a living wage. by your argument the conditions in the u.s. factories should have remained horrible, and people should just put up with it, or not work there. business owners have never been big on voluntarily improving conditions and pay. the customers and the government has to push them to it. in any case, bloodied fingers wanted to know more about the issue, that was the point. i don't think you can argue that more knowledge is a problem. i also don't think that your position is that just accepting opinions should suffice, and no factual information is needed. your brother's story doesn't really mean anything in this case, as not liking the smell after a week is not the same as working somewhere for decades, and losing your job because you want minimum wage. i don't think your brother got paid less than minimum wage.

bill, the issue is not korea, it is cort, and park himself. just because there are other places with worse conditions, doesn't mean we can't be interested in these people. we don't consume anything produced in north korea, and we have no way to affect what happens there. yours is an unrelated argument about the issue on this topic. you just pulled a red herring, that's it. and declaring that nothing will change your mind is hardly an intelligent position.

will, the companies who are customers of cort can help to improve conditions at the manufacturers they deal with. that is the most effective control. this is not an issue of solving a country's problems, rather just caring about how one factory treats its workers. in the big picture of things, this is not big, and all bloodied wants is information. i don't think caring about others, and wanting to know more of both sides of an issue is a bee in the bonnet or panties in a bunch.

darth, i know you are mostly gonna know park's side of the story, and learning about both sides is important, the truth will be somewhere in there between all the bits and pieces. i think it's naive to think this is just the union's fault, and poor mr. park bent over backwards to help but he just couldn't afford to, considering cort's and park's profits. i don't think bloodied, or anyone else wanted to go back and forth, just wanted to find out more on the issue, and knowing what g&l's stance is, and what is in place to make sure workers are not mistreated on the other end.

[Theguitarstore]

May I interject here and say if everyone would just buy American G&L s you would all feel better about yourselves.


Disclaimer, this was written on an Apple product made in deplorable conditions in China.

[Lefty]

.

Amen, Bill. Amen.

WR

+1

[Fumble fingers]

Loius , I'm from dayton Ohio , big big big GM town , or used to be ..... Union's suck and I'm sure a Korean Union sets that bar even higher with coruption , I'm sure the Union is worse than the managment their complaining about ,

if conditions were that bad they could quit un-like the child labor in our country a century ago ...... if the fumes were bothering them then quit , Just like my brother in-law , he didn't complain of the "conditions " to the Union , he just quit and got a job that was better for him

Like Dave posted earlier , you can't make quality guitars in terrible conditions , so where's the junk ?

[KenC]

if the fumes were bothering them then quit , Just like my brother in-law , he didn't complain of the "conditions " to the Union , he just quit and got a job that was better for him

According to the article the workers were concerned about solvent vapors. That is absolutely different from the odors your brother-in-law would have had to put up with driving a garbage truck. Odors may be unpleasant enough to cause loss of appetite, and in a worst case may cause some vomiting. In my experience (25+ years of assessing and fixing causes of occupational disease), workers who enjoy their jobs and are secure in their pay and benefits will tolerate odors without many serious complaints (for example: healthcare professionals, veterinarians, meat packers, police and EMTs, etc.). There may be griping, but the odors are usually viewed as part of the job. When the question of long-term harm comes up, though, it becomes another situation entirely.

Solvent exposures have been known for decades to cause a number of very serious diseases. I have no idea of the specific chemicals Cort would have been using, but it's pretty reasonable to suspect that the workers could be concerned about things like leukemia, renal cancer, or chronic lung disease. Obviously these aren't the kinds of diseases that happen overnight. Craftsmen who have been building instruments for years (exactly who most guitar builders would want to hire and retain) may begin to see cases of suspicious diseases showing up among co-workers, or simply learn about the hazards of chemicals they may have been exposed to for years. New hires working on a garbage truck or in a slaughterhouse may walk away after a couple of days of foul odors, but craftsmen with years or even decades of experience probably won't be eager to leave a job they love. Going again from my personal experience, workers in that situation will usually ask management to make some basic changes to the workplace to protect their health. They aren't asking for anything remotely unreasonable IMO...just the opportunity to do their jobs without undue fear of medical disability or premature death. How the questions are asked (open conversation or union actions) generally depends on the amount of mutual respect between workers and the employer.

It's easy and relatively inexpensive (if you know what you're doing) to control exposures to solvents in the workplace. A well-designed spray booth and properly maintained equipment can pretty well eliminate exposure to anybody outside of the booth, and minimize exposure inside the booth to the point that a respirator will handle what remains. Testing the air for solvents after changes are made is also easy and inexpensive (again, if you know what you're doing) and can put workers at ease about their long-term health...if people are willing to speak with each other...

The impression I got from the OP's article was that workers had requested that something be done about solvent exposure in the plant (along with some other concerns about pay and conditions), and that the owner had slammed the door on them. IIRC, the workers didn't walk out. They wanted their jobs, but just wanted to do them without putting themselves and their families at risk (in terms of health, financial security or quality of life). The owner wanted cheap labor that would accept whatever terms were most beneficial to him. The article states that the workers had unionized in order to get minimum wage. This really makes it seem like the owner had the intent all along to exploit workers for his own financial gain, and was going to find the easiest way to accomplish that.

End of rant. Sorry for adding to the hate and discontent in this thread, but I just couldn't let some of the posts trivializing the health hazards Cort's workers apparently faced go by without commenting. Every day and night, workers around the world (including in the US, Australia and western Europe) die because of unsafe and unhealthful working conditions. Cheap guitars aren't a good reason to add to those numbers, and neither are guitar manufacturers' profits.

OK, that's the end of rant.

Ken

[louis cyfer]

Loius , I'm from dayton Ohio , big big big GM town , or used to be ..... Union's suck and I'm sure a Korean Union sets that bar even higher with coruption , I'm sure the Union is worse than the managment their complaining about ,

if conditions were that bad they could quit un-like the child labor in our country a century ago ...... if the fumes were bothering them then quit , Just like my brother in-law , he didn't complain of the "conditions " to the Union , he just quit and got a job that was better for him

Like Dave posted earlier , you can't make quality guitars in terrible conditions , so where's the junk ?

fumble, i don't agree that you can't make quality guitars in bad conditions, that is an assertion that has not been demonstrated . you are making assertions about korean unions without any knowledge on the subject. i would think you'd be interested in learning about it instead of assuming. quoting after 20-30 years put in is not necessarily an option. btw, if you actually read what happened, the workers put up with free overtime, bad conditions because the company was crying poverty to them. only after they learned about the insane profits that they wanted improvement. park filed a bankruptcy as an answer and moved the plant. since then, it has been ruled an unjustified bankruptcy. cort also lied to the employees in order to get them to resign (threat of not receiving unemployment).

your brother in law's situation is not even comparable, you are bringing in a red herring. the fumes weren't just bothering them, they were ruining their health (among many other issues), they couldn't get medical care for it, and they could not get workers comp if they missed work, because the company refused to qualify it as work related. i don't care about the union, i don't particularly like them, however i do care about the workers. we still don't have the whole picture though, and while we are trying to find out more, you seemed to have made up your mind based on assumptions, with very little data at your disposal. i am rather surprised by this coming from you. why do you think that employers can provide however horrible conditions they feel like (at cort's factory there are a lot allegations about employee abuse), and the people who don't like it should just quit? don't you think they deserve safe (not necessarily comfortable) working environment and minimum wage?

[supereiv]

May I interject here and say if everyone would just buy American G&L s you would all feel better about yourselves.

[Fumble fingers]

you guy's are splitting hairs compared to my brother in law .... the Point is "they can quit" ... no one is forcing them to work there ...period ... have you guy's ever visited a body shop ?? ... talk about fumes , its not for everybody

Union's suck , I wouldn't believe a word the Korean Union says or American Unions ..... besides this is a Korean Goverment problem


Unions are a for profit company ..... I don't trust them for anything , I can only imagine the Korea Union is even worse than what we got .... Cort did the right thing moving the factory , so the Korean's can cry about it now but Cort ain't coming back to Korea

Boogie Bills post was right on

[helle-man]

.

Please send all your Tribute guitars to: Will Ray, Asheville, NC.

I'll take good care of those guitars so you guys can sleep at night.

WR

[ChinoGee]

the Point is "they can quit" ... no one is forcing them to work there

Wow, everything seems so simple in your world. Lucky you are.

OK, so those workers can be exploited, if they're not satisfied, they can quit.

Stupids benagladesh textil workers, they worked in dilapidated and unsafe buildings but hey, they could quit!

Stupids Chinese miners, they never see the light of the day, but no problem, they're not forced to work at 800m depth, they can go back to their countryside where there's starvation.

Stupids yemenites builders in Qatar, they come for 1 or 2 years, live in very hard conditions, far from their family but hey, nobody forced them to come in Qatar to build towers ! T

All of those workers have without a doubt a solid formation, speak different languages, so they'll find an other job easily for sure.

If you worked in bad condtions, with half of your wage, and your boss said to you "hey, not happy? Well you can quit man!", maybe you'd find that normal? Don't you think it's important to (sometimes at least) fight against injustice?

[Fumble fingers]

it's still a Korea problem , I would hope everybody would have as good of work conditions that are possible , but Korea is going through teething problems that we went through 100 years ago , Heck Goverment standard's , Union and workers are all dealing with it like we did .... most buisnesses out here realize that good working conditions mean higher productivity , safer enviroment means people will show up to work week in week out for years to come ... there are still a lot of jobs here I wouldn't want to do regardless how high they paid me ..... Unions don't seem to care if they make a buisness non-profitable because they will always point the finger and blame someone else for responsibilty

[bloodied_fingers]

And finally..when is someone going to mention North Korea? Jeez, talk about oppressed workers...imagine how long that protest would last. LOL! A corrupt government, a nation of starving people, and their threats of nuclear war...and you want to bitch about the SOUTH??? This is laughable...

Trust me...you want to have a dialog about Korea..you'd better start thinking about the North sticking a nuke onboard five ships and parking them in the harbors of Houston, New Orleans, New York, LA and San Francisco. That, boys...is a REAL THREAT. Trust me, I know things...they don't need an ICBM.

Then you'll really have something to whine about.

Bill

What does this even have to do with anything? Other than to distract from the
original post? Fear mongering may be an effective technique for politicians but
I don't think it has a place in this thread.

May I interject here and say if everyone would just buy American G&L s you would all feel better about yourselves.


Disclaimer, this was written on an Apple product made in deplorable conditions in China.

.

Please send all your Tribute guitars to: Will Ray, Asheville, NC.

I'll take good care of those guitars so you guys can sleep at night.

WR

Kids, the grown ups are talking now. Please go play with your b-benders.



Ok, sorry for that. If you don't have something to add, which I thought Helle-man's
first post here did, why throw in pointless barbs? To distract from any
substantive discussion?

It may be tongue-in-cheek, but it is just as counterproductive as the fear
mongering tactic employed by Bill.

you guy's are splitting hairs compared to my brother in law .... the Point is "they can quit" ... no one is forcing them to work there ...period ... have you guy's ever visited a body shop ?? ... talk about fumes , its not for everybody

Union's suck , I wouldn't believe a word the Korean Union says or American Unions ..... besides this is a Korean Goverment problem

Unions are a for profit company ..... I don't trust them for anything , I can only imagine the Korea Union is even worse than what we got .... Cort did the right thing moving the factory , so the Korean's can cry about it now but Cort ain't coming back to Korea

Boogie Bills post was right on

It is really difficult, and maybe pointless, to refute these kind of incisive and eloquent arguments.

it's still a Korea problem , I would hope everybody would have as good of work conditions that are possible , but Korea is going through teething problems that we went through 100 years ago , Heck Goverment standard's , Union and workers are all dealing with it like we did .... most buisnesses out here realize that good working conditions mean higher productivity , safer enviroment means people will show up to work week in week out for years to come ... there are still a lot of jobs here I wouldn't want to do regardless how high they paid me ..... Unions don't seem to care if they make a buisness non-profitable because they will always point the finger and blame someone else for responsibilty

It certainly is a Korean problem. I think everyone can agree with that. Its also a
problem for Indonesia, China, Bangladesh and so on. But that doesn't absolve the
people on this end from responsibility.

The demand exists because, primarily, western countries generate it. Big
business men like Mr Park and Dave/G&L/BBE can reap massive profits by improving
their margins through ever cheapening labor.

The assertion that "you cant make quality instruments" under the conditions
described by the Korean workers is demonstrably false. Plenty of fantastic
products are made under duress, in hazardous conditions and with relatively
unskilled labor.

Several posters above refer to the 'growing pains' of the US industrial
revolution. Near the turn of the century there were many fine instruments being
made right here in our country. Many are highly prized and valued to this day!
Many of those highly coveted, fantastic instruments were certainly fabricated by
fearful, underpaid and (sometimes) child-sized hands.

The W.W. Kimball company (most have heard of their pianos, right?) is just one example.
That company was so bad as to be "offically shunned" in 1912 by the musical instrument
workers. ("Piano, Organ & Musical Instrument Workers Official Journal", April 12, 1912.)

Do you not find it a little bit strange that a Korean national, Mr Park, closed
his two flagship manufacturing facilities down in favor of countries known to
have fewer labor restrictions and even sparser resources to protect workers
rights? In the wake of record profits and allegations of abuse no less.

G&L doesn't care about that sort of behavior? You as a human being don't care about that? I do.

Ok, keep on with the scoffing, distraction techniques and ambivelence fostered
by your ethnocentric nature but if you care so little and have nothing to add why keep
returning to this thread?

Is it the gnawing contrition that creeps in when you consider there just MIGHT be something to all of this?

[Salmon]

Have any of you heard of this: http://cortaction.wordpress.com/about/

Did my G&L Tribute come from one of these factories?

I guess I have been blissfully ignorant of the worker conditions and treatment in these foreign manufacturing sites.

you have to wonder about someone posting a link like this here.

did you bother asking questions before dropping the bomb?

if you are truly interested in humanitarianism surely there have to be some homeless people you can help get back on their feet. there are elderly people needing food and money for prescriptions or mere company. there are kids without dads needing a mentor.

obviously you are well enough off to enjoy guitars or you would not be here. granted i am assuming you have a guitar. why pick at a small guitar maker when there are much more significant fish to fry? is this your pet project because it is "your thing" being a guitar guy?

there are ways to make a much more substantial difference to people in real life not some david and goliath fantasy played out typing words in a guitar forum.

it is too easy to destroy and tear something a part that people have worked hard to build even worming away at it. have you much experience building anything? actually doing something by putting something you have in the hands of those who don't have should change your perspective.

whatever your initial intent the result has been nothing more than what a troll would enjoy.

[helle-man]

.

You guys sure get worked up about something someone found posted on the internet.

How do you know any of this is actually true or real? Or extremely biased?

Is this how you guys want to spend your time?

Don't you wanna play guitar anymore?

Again, send all Tributes you don't want to me.

Will

[darwinohm]

Craig, I nominate this thread for locking and here are my reasons:

!. I do not agree or disagree with the views of anyone that has posted. Everyone has their own opinions.

2. The point has been raised about what is fact and what is opinion. Again, I see many opinions.

3. I view this forum as a forum about music, guitars, not limited to only G&L, and musicians sharing music, ideas, and thoughts about what they like and do.

4. Recently there have been threads that have turned into social issues that seem to bring disrespect for each other to the forefront.

5. Last I checked, this post had over 400 reads, probably less that 20 different posters and I would bet that if there were 200 more posts and 4000 more reads this issue will not get resolved on this board.

6. I would suggest that we cannot solve issues of religion, social issues, drug legalization or not and many other social issues on this forum. I would also hope that there may be other forums that do address these issues but I do not know what they would be.

7. I would like to get back to the forum and have some fun. At my age I am not going to have a huge impact on the world but I can still get some good porn and ideas from others on this forum and I find the new members especially interesting. I accept the fact that it is perfectly fine to agree to disagree!-- Darwin

[louis cyfer]

Craig, I nominate this thread for locking and here are my reasons:

!. I do not agree or disagree with the views of anyone that has posted. Everyone has their own opinions.

2. The point has been raised about what is fact and what is opinion. Again, I see many opinions.

3. I view this forum as a forum about music, guitars, not limited to only G&L, and musicians sharing music, ideas, and thoughts about what they like and do.

4. Recently there have been threads that have turned into social issues that seem to bring disrespect for each other to the forefront.

5. Last I checked, this post had over 400 reads, probably less that 20 different posters and I would bet that if there were 200 more posts and 4000 more reads this issue will not get resolved on this board.

6. I would suggest that we cannot solve issues of religion, social issues, drug legalization or not and many other social issues on this forum. I would also hope that there may be other forums that do address these issues but I do not know what they would be.

7. I would like to get back to the forum and have some fun. At my age I am not going to have a huge impact on the world but I can still get some good porn and ideas from others on this forum and I find the new members especially interesting. I accept the fact that it is perfectly fine to agree to disagree!-- Darwin

i think the whole point of this thread was searching for facts, as we seem to be very short on those. 2 positions have come up, ones who want to learn more about the issue before making up their mind, and the other being "who cares". this issue does involve guitars and g&l. some have tried to make it political, but this is just a guitar issue to us. nothing is preventing you or anyone else to have fun, all the rest of the forum chugs along like before. you know what the thread is about, don't have to keep opening it. you are right that there are a lot of opinions, a lot of red herring were thrown in to confuse the issue, but i'd like to see some more information about this. i don't think resolution was the goal, just learning more.