New Member - S-500 to "enhanced" Comanche VI Modifier
Tue Mar 08, 2022 6:04 pm
I'll get some pictures up on my project guitar. It's finished and sounds and looks great.
I picked up my S-500 locally used for $300 with a maple neck and a nice clear finish ash body. It came with a red tortoise shell pickguard and standard S-500 electronics. I had read on this forum that all of the Legacy/S-500/Comanche models had a bathtub route which was appealing to me. That meant I can change pickups without routing the body. I took a gamble and ordered a G&L 6204 (Comanche VI) pickguard from Chandler which fit well, but required filling some of those 11 pickguard screw holes and drilling 8 new ones. None of the original 11 screw holes were in the correct place.
If you look at the Comanche schematics on this website you'll see that each current Comanche pickup has a lead referenced to ground (on the baseplate). I bought 2 standard and 1 Will Ray Zcoil and proceeded to modify each by lifting that ground and wiring out all four leads from the two halves of each pickup.
Next I installed and wired 6 DPDT subminiature switches (center off). I wasn't making just a Comanche VI, I wanted each 1/2 pickup to be selectable On and in phase, or Off, or On and out of phase. There is 36 termination points on those six switches.
Next I wanted to be able to run the guitar in Mono or Stereo. I used a Bourne 250k pot with DPDT switch to do this. In Mono the guitar works like an enhanced current production Comanche with the bass and treble 1/2 pickups in series. In Stereo the guitar runs more like a Comanche VI, except the bass pickups are 1/2 of the stereo signal and the treble pickups are the other half - that allows me to for example run a high treble/bright switch setting on those bass strings and separately run the treble to a more full bodied amplifier allowing you to emulate a snappy Telecaster on the bass strings without making the treble strings unlistenable. And you can run separate effects - say slap back on the bass strings and a Leslie effect on the treble strings. In stereo the bass and treble 1/2 pickups have their own 250k volume control. I installed a Bourne 250k with DPDT for the treble side, the switch switches in a 1.5 Henry inductor for the bass and treble sides (two separate inductors). I haven't used the guitar enough if the inductors are the final word or whether I may put some capacitors in there. I felt the inductors would be useful as the inductance of a 1/2 pickup on the Zcoil is very low, they provide a midrange frequency shift to a more bassy tone (the Q point shifts down in frequency and broadens). In Stereo it's a neat affect to hit a 6 string chord with the treble volume at 0 then swell the treble strings volume up for a pedal steel affect.
I've read some reviews on how a Comanche VI sounds. A Comanche VI puts all selected 1/2 pickups in parallel, meaning the guitar's DCR varies from 2.4k ohm (with only a single 1/2 pickup selected like just the bass or just the treble) to 1.2k ohm with 2 1/2 pickups selected, to 600 ohms with 4 1/2 pickups selected and finally 400 ohms with all 6 1/2 pickups selected. Most reviews call the Comanche VI "hi fi sounding", it's also a low impedance guitar without an impedance matching transformer (like the old Les Paul Recording had). Low impedance guitars have less tone impact from pickup selections than high impedance instruments. With my guitar it's a high impedance guitar in Mono and low impedance in Stereo - which is why I added the switchable inductors in series with the pickups. The inductors return the guitar to high impedance while in Stereo operation.
After finishing this project I've learned quite a bit about the Zcoil pickups:
1) Its easy to break windings removing the pickup cover even after heating the cover. Be careful. If you do break windings you may still be able to salvage the 1/2 pickup by removing a few windings and reterminating the winding.
2) The USA Comanche VI pickguard was a perfect fit around the neck and bridge of my Tribute S-500.
3) None of the Tributes 11 pickguard screws were in the correct spot when installing the Comanche VI pickguard. Several were close, which requires filling the old screw hole and redrilling a new one that partially includes the repaired screw hole.
4) The claw is a 3 spring only unit but the bridge block has 5 spring holes in it. I don't use the vibrato arm and was able to tighten the 3 springs enough to keep the block immobile during string bends.
5) You run out of space pretty quickly wiring out the 6 DPDT (center off) switches. Its hard to keep that wiring tidy.
6) After playing the guitar in Mono a bit it's clear that my "normal" amplifier tone settings have too much bass. Turning the bass down improves the glassey chime when two or more treble 1/2 pickups are in use.
7) The Will Ray pickup is a good application for the bridge position, it balances well with standard Zcoils in the neck and center positions.
8) Any Legacy, S-500 or Comanche can be converted to a Comanche V, VI, or an enhanced VI ( I guess I'll call my guitar a VI+). The bathtub route makes pickup changes a no body routing option, and Chandler's pickguards allow you to change pickups without cutting a new pickguard yourself. I don't do woodwork and I don't want to cut a pickguard.
9) Given the price of Zcoil pickups starting with Tribute Comanche is your best bet to save some $$$ for your project if you're a Zcoil fan. I prefer the woods used in the Tribute Legacy and S-500 lines but a recent sassafras Comanche body in sunburst with a maple fretboard would make a great guitar.
10) Parts were $220 for 3 Zcoils, $36 for the DPDT center off switches, $12 for 2 Bourne 250k pots with DPDT switches, $6 for two 1.5 henry inductors, $45 for the Chandler pickguard, $6 for the Switchcraft stereo 1/4" jack. I guess I can sell the S-500 pickguard, pickups, switches and controls to recoup a little $$$.
11) Current Comanche pickups have the low side of the treble 1/2 pickup referenced to ground. The Comanche VI had a ground in the middle, on the low side of the bass 1/2 pickup and the high side of the treble 1/2 pickup. If you're set on building a Comanche VI I suggest lifting the ground on a current Comanche pickup and wiring that replacement center ground in the controls. The physical location of the ground won't make much of a difference on the sound, but the electrical placement does.
I've been modifying guitars with enhanced switching since 1980. I've been playing with custom wound Fender Tele pickups with 3 magnets vs 6 for the bridge and neck position for a stereo Tele since the early 90's. It's nice to have snappy bass strings and mellow treble strings by sending each to a separate amplifier. After I got started with these custom wound pickups I discovered that Chet Atkins had experimented with the same thing in the 60s. Splitting Zcoils is a natural progression.
I'm retired and still picking and modifying guitars. Recent cataract surgery has given me perfect vision and working on these tiny switches and tight wiring is possible again.
That's the story so far with my G&L project guitar. Nice to be on this forum and thanks for supporting G&L!
I picked up my S-500 locally used for $300 with a maple neck and a nice clear finish ash body. It came with a red tortoise shell pickguard and standard S-500 electronics. I had read on this forum that all of the Legacy/S-500/Comanche models had a bathtub route which was appealing to me. That meant I can change pickups without routing the body. I took a gamble and ordered a G&L 6204 (Comanche VI) pickguard from Chandler which fit well, but required filling some of those 11 pickguard screw holes and drilling 8 new ones. None of the original 11 screw holes were in the correct place.
If you look at the Comanche schematics on this website you'll see that each current Comanche pickup has a lead referenced to ground (on the baseplate). I bought 2 standard and 1 Will Ray Zcoil and proceeded to modify each by lifting that ground and wiring out all four leads from the two halves of each pickup.
Next I installed and wired 6 DPDT subminiature switches (center off). I wasn't making just a Comanche VI, I wanted each 1/2 pickup to be selectable On and in phase, or Off, or On and out of phase. There is 36 termination points on those six switches.
Next I wanted to be able to run the guitar in Mono or Stereo. I used a Bourne 250k pot with DPDT switch to do this. In Mono the guitar works like an enhanced current production Comanche with the bass and treble 1/2 pickups in series. In Stereo the guitar runs more like a Comanche VI, except the bass pickups are 1/2 of the stereo signal and the treble pickups are the other half - that allows me to for example run a high treble/bright switch setting on those bass strings and separately run the treble to a more full bodied amplifier allowing you to emulate a snappy Telecaster on the bass strings without making the treble strings unlistenable. And you can run separate effects - say slap back on the bass strings and a Leslie effect on the treble strings. In stereo the bass and treble 1/2 pickups have their own 250k volume control. I installed a Bourne 250k with DPDT for the treble side, the switch switches in a 1.5 Henry inductor for the bass and treble sides (two separate inductors). I haven't used the guitar enough if the inductors are the final word or whether I may put some capacitors in there. I felt the inductors would be useful as the inductance of a 1/2 pickup on the Zcoil is very low, they provide a midrange frequency shift to a more bassy tone (the Q point shifts down in frequency and broadens). In Stereo it's a neat affect to hit a 6 string chord with the treble volume at 0 then swell the treble strings volume up for a pedal steel affect.
I've read some reviews on how a Comanche VI sounds. A Comanche VI puts all selected 1/2 pickups in parallel, meaning the guitar's DCR varies from 2.4k ohm (with only a single 1/2 pickup selected like just the bass or just the treble) to 1.2k ohm with 2 1/2 pickups selected, to 600 ohms with 4 1/2 pickups selected and finally 400 ohms with all 6 1/2 pickups selected. Most reviews call the Comanche VI "hi fi sounding", it's also a low impedance guitar without an impedance matching transformer (like the old Les Paul Recording had). Low impedance guitars have less tone impact from pickup selections than high impedance instruments. With my guitar it's a high impedance guitar in Mono and low impedance in Stereo - which is why I added the switchable inductors in series with the pickups. The inductors return the guitar to high impedance while in Stereo operation.
After finishing this project I've learned quite a bit about the Zcoil pickups:
1) Its easy to break windings removing the pickup cover even after heating the cover. Be careful. If you do break windings you may still be able to salvage the 1/2 pickup by removing a few windings and reterminating the winding.
2) The USA Comanche VI pickguard was a perfect fit around the neck and bridge of my Tribute S-500.
3) None of the Tributes 11 pickguard screws were in the correct spot when installing the Comanche VI pickguard. Several were close, which requires filling the old screw hole and redrilling a new one that partially includes the repaired screw hole.
4) The claw is a 3 spring only unit but the bridge block has 5 spring holes in it. I don't use the vibrato arm and was able to tighten the 3 springs enough to keep the block immobile during string bends.
5) You run out of space pretty quickly wiring out the 6 DPDT (center off) switches. Its hard to keep that wiring tidy.
6) After playing the guitar in Mono a bit it's clear that my "normal" amplifier tone settings have too much bass. Turning the bass down improves the glassey chime when two or more treble 1/2 pickups are in use.
7) The Will Ray pickup is a good application for the bridge position, it balances well with standard Zcoils in the neck and center positions.
8) Any Legacy, S-500 or Comanche can be converted to a Comanche V, VI, or an enhanced VI ( I guess I'll call my guitar a VI+). The bathtub route makes pickup changes a no body routing option, and Chandler's pickguards allow you to change pickups without cutting a new pickguard yourself. I don't do woodwork and I don't want to cut a pickguard.
9) Given the price of Zcoil pickups starting with Tribute Comanche is your best bet to save some $$$ for your project if you're a Zcoil fan. I prefer the woods used in the Tribute Legacy and S-500 lines but a recent sassafras Comanche body in sunburst with a maple fretboard would make a great guitar.
10) Parts were $220 for 3 Zcoils, $36 for the DPDT center off switches, $12 for 2 Bourne 250k pots with DPDT switches, $6 for two 1.5 henry inductors, $45 for the Chandler pickguard, $6 for the Switchcraft stereo 1/4" jack. I guess I can sell the S-500 pickguard, pickups, switches and controls to recoup a little $$$.
11) Current Comanche pickups have the low side of the treble 1/2 pickup referenced to ground. The Comanche VI had a ground in the middle, on the low side of the bass 1/2 pickup and the high side of the treble 1/2 pickup. If you're set on building a Comanche VI I suggest lifting the ground on a current Comanche pickup and wiring that replacement center ground in the controls. The physical location of the ground won't make much of a difference on the sound, but the electrical placement does.
I've been modifying guitars with enhanced switching since 1980. I've been playing with custom wound Fender Tele pickups with 3 magnets vs 6 for the bridge and neck position for a stereo Tele since the early 90's. It's nice to have snappy bass strings and mellow treble strings by sending each to a separate amplifier. After I got started with these custom wound pickups I discovered that Chet Atkins had experimented with the same thing in the 60s. Splitting Zcoils is a natural progression.
I'm retired and still picking and modifying guitars. Recent cataract surgery has given me perfect vision and working on these tiny switches and tight wiring is possible again.
That's the story so far with my G&L project guitar. Nice to be on this forum and thanks for supporting G&L!
Re: New Member - S-500 to "enhanced" Comanche VI Modifier
Tue Mar 08, 2022 8:01 pm
Hey Rodney! 
First off welcome and what an phenomenal way to come
Into the GLDP fold. What you’ve described and done is a fantastic approach to a Comanche VI!
As a huge Z coil fan and owner of both a Comanche VI and a few ASAT Z coil models you have peaked my interest on other mod options for future project. +1 on the Will Ray bridge pup, I’ve been touting those for years. It will be interesting to hear your thoughts on capacitor changes and any other possible pot or electrical changes. VI+ is a great monitor.
Looking forward to seeing pictures and hearing more about yer guitar. Welcome to the club and definitely looking forward to future posts!
First off welcome and what an phenomenal way to come
Into the GLDP fold. What you’ve described and done is a fantastic approach to a Comanche VI!
As a huge Z coil fan and owner of both a Comanche VI and a few ASAT Z coil models you have peaked my interest on other mod options for future project. +1 on the Will Ray bridge pup, I’ve been touting those for years. It will be interesting to hear your thoughts on capacitor changes and any other possible pot or electrical changes. VI+ is a great monitor.Looking forward to seeing pictures and hearing more about yer guitar. Welcome to the club and definitely looking forward to future posts!
Comanche VI+ from S-500 PHOTOS in Gallery
Wed Mar 09, 2022 11:00 am
Sam
Many thanks. I've just put photos out in the gallery. One of which is a photo of my Stereo 52' Reissue Tele, note the magnets installed and missing in the Bridge and Neck Pickups.
Happy Trails!
Rodney
Many thanks. I've just put photos out in the gallery. One of which is a photo of my Stereo 52' Reissue Tele, note the magnets installed and missing in the Bridge and Neck Pickups.
Happy Trails!
Rodney
Re: New Member - S-500 to "enhanced" Comanche VI Modifier
Thu Mar 10, 2022 12:54 pm
As a fan of the Comanche VI, I am impressed. Hats off to your skills!
Re: New Member - S-500 to "enhanced" Comanche VI Modifier
Thu Mar 10, 2022 5:33 pm
tomanche
Thank you for your kind words. So far I'm building guitars that appeal to me but it's always good to get some feedback. I'm likely to over complicate my personal guitars, when I ask other players to try them they seem a little overwhelmed at the available options.
I've got the pickguard from the S-500 with the controls and pickups and I had an inspirational moment about those as in when life gives you lemons.... One possibly unresolved issue on my VI+ is the winding inductance and capacitance on those half coils vs full size coils. When I modified my Zcoils to wire out all the 1/2 pickups and isolate the grounds I saw how easy it would be to separate the coil and magnet from the base plate and modify these. In respect to the Zcoil assembling a Scoil out of the same parts is an option. With regard to the S-500 I would be interested in modifying the magnets to make a pickup with a 1/2 coil magnet circuit but a full coil electrical circuit - the goal here would be preserve the "quack" tones.
So I'm on the lookout for another S-500 with an ash body and maple fretboard, to make a 6 S-500 pickup guitar with the same switching my VI+ has. Having done something similar with my stereo Telecaster (see my gallery) I know that if there's room in the bathtub route and if Chandler can make that pickguard that the results will be good. The first step will be getting those covers off those 3 S-500 pickups without destroying the windings. We'll see how it turns out.
One step at a time. I was drawn to G&L Legacy/S-500/Comanches for the bathtub route that makes pickup mods easier. Chandler's willingness to make custom pickguards is also a big help. And now I'm realizing that the pole piece MFD pickups are also modifiable due to there construction. Lastly the quality of G&L's Tribute guitars make spending hours modifying a Tribute guitar a worthwhile endeavor. And modifying Tributes gives one the experience to do something similar on USA models with confidence.
I digress. Thanks again.
Thank you for your kind words. So far I'm building guitars that appeal to me but it's always good to get some feedback. I'm likely to over complicate my personal guitars, when I ask other players to try them they seem a little overwhelmed at the available options.
I've got the pickguard from the S-500 with the controls and pickups and I had an inspirational moment about those as in when life gives you lemons.... One possibly unresolved issue on my VI+ is the winding inductance and capacitance on those half coils vs full size coils. When I modified my Zcoils to wire out all the 1/2 pickups and isolate the grounds I saw how easy it would be to separate the coil and magnet from the base plate and modify these. In respect to the Zcoil assembling a Scoil out of the same parts is an option. With regard to the S-500 I would be interested in modifying the magnets to make a pickup with a 1/2 coil magnet circuit but a full coil electrical circuit - the goal here would be preserve the "quack" tones.
So I'm on the lookout for another S-500 with an ash body and maple fretboard, to make a 6 S-500 pickup guitar with the same switching my VI+ has. Having done something similar with my stereo Telecaster (see my gallery) I know that if there's room in the bathtub route and if Chandler can make that pickguard that the results will be good. The first step will be getting those covers off those 3 S-500 pickups without destroying the windings. We'll see how it turns out.
One step at a time. I was drawn to G&L Legacy/S-500/Comanches for the bathtub route that makes pickup mods easier. Chandler's willingness to make custom pickguards is also a big help. And now I'm realizing that the pole piece MFD pickups are also modifiable due to there construction. Lastly the quality of G&L's Tribute guitars make spending hours modifying a Tribute guitar a worthwhile endeavor. And modifying Tributes gives one the experience to do something similar on USA models with confidence.
I digress. Thanks again.