LR for 10/29/12: In The Beginning

First off, to anyone in the path of the storm and / or already evacuated, please be safe and smile as much as you can. If you're lucky enough to be able to view the storm from a safe vantage point then enjoy. If not, pick up your guitar and play.

No lunch today - - too much work, so we'll just dive in:

In the beginning

some players point to "the minute," like The Beatles on Ed Sullivan,others were influenced by family members who played, or friends that had a nice stack of records, still others were always listening to the radio and came to know the songs and be able to play them by heart. if you were lucky you had a mom or dad that was in the business or parents not intent on saddling you with the violin. and then there were the guys and gals who were just plain talented right off.

my first guitar was a nylon string folk guitar. this was the height of the folk era and my sister and her friends spent their weekends at washington square park in nyc. i taqged along with them a few times and can still hear songs like Springhill Mining Disaster playing in my head. so folks songs were the first things i learned and in many ways colored the blues, rock, pop, new wave, indie pop, et al that followed. then i heard The Turtles version of It Ain't Me Babe and the Guess Who version of Shakin All Over and that was it for the nylon string. What about you? Defining moment? Copping chords and licks off records? Family member or friend play an instrument and encouraged you?

G&L:

not to raise bugaboos from the past, and as much as i hated to see it go, the old board had to die. while a lot of friendships were made, knowledge and tips passed around and arguments hashed out, it was doing little to nothing for the brand. it was mostly a bunch of guys mainly jawing about Leo-era G&L's and showing off the ones we got or lusted after. Leo-era G&L's will always be my first love and to be fair i only have one made after his death. but i have had a number of BBE-era guitars and all were excellent, and in many ways played and felt better than the earlier ones. and the comments on this board bear out that BBE is building some great guitars and basses.

one of the most significant changes i've seen at G&L is the transition from the post-Leo era, which was basically most of the 90's, to the full-fledged BBE-era. yes, the core is still Leo and George and their designs and influence, but Darth and team have clearly come into their own and build an instrument that's second to none. especially in looks, woods and finishing. and while Fred Finisher said he thought a lot of today's instruments look "dipped in plastic," i still say that other than a handful of standout finishes on Leo-era instruments, none reach a level of refinement and "polish" that the BBE G&L's have. and it looks like we've only seen the tip of the iceberg so to speak. agree, disagree?

Some reference points in my musical journey:

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Hey, great subjects Jon and your are really getting onto my era. Like you, I hope everyone gets through this major storm okay.

There is social media all over the place today and we are all connected most of the time. I was a kid in the 50's, no TV, party line telephone and no telephone for a couple of years when getting in a new dial system. I found a Banjo in the attic when I was 4 years old and started to do something with it, I'm not sure what but it was like a magnet for me. I was given a big tube radio in the late fourties as a result of a death in the family. I was glued to that radio at night. It also had shortwave and I could get all kinds of foreign stations but couldn't understand any of them, Now here where the old telephone line comes in. During the conversion to a dial system they had to get money to build it. For a couple of years I hooked the antenna from my radio to the telephone line which was about 20 miles long. I listened to the Grand Old Oprey, WSM on Saturday nights and any music I could find. That is how I started with this mess. I couldn't get music any other way. There we no record players or TV at home until long after I left to be on my own. Just out of high school I started playing in a Rock and Roll band. To a kid my age, it didn't get much better. Jon, the music clips today are where it all started.

Yes, G&L has been constantly improving the product and the manufacturing process has refined for a much more consistent product. I do like the high gloss finishes, especially the transparents over the ash bodies and flamed necks but it is more than that. Look at a Fender and you will see the seams in the body pieces in the paint. That is rare on a G&L. There recent limited editions with woods and different types of finishes are awesome. They are doing a great job with the products. If only more musicians knew about them. Some time back I would not have considered buying anything but a used G&L. They are an unbelievably good buy used. My most recent 7 G&Ls I have purchased new. They are so unique and beautiful and you generally take a beating when buying new for resale value. I have changed my mind on some of these and don't intend to sell anyway but the product is that outstanding to me. What is the saying? I spent my money on beer, women, and G&Ls. The rest I wasted!-- Darwin

Great start to the week Jon!

I'm a couple of miles south of the storm's track as it's turned toward land. We went from a light breeze and drizzle this morning to a steady rain and occasional gusts of wind this afternoon. The center of the storm is still over a hundred miles east of me. For those who are not familiar with Atlantic hurricanes, the winds are generally a bit slower to the south/west of the storm's track. If I have to be within range of a hurricane, at least I'm in the best position relative to where the storm is heading.

I've been taking your advice and and playing like crazy while I watch the wind build and the rain come down. Today I've been working on an upright bass part for a new cover we're doing:

[youtube]WmnUayaQyBk[/youtube]

This one takes slapping, which I've never managed to do before this morning. I've had to stop after raising a huge blister on my right middle finger. My wife is accusing me of being a show-off, but I still have a way to go before I'm ready to do this comfortably in a band situation.

I got my start a bit later than you or Darwin. For me the first flickers were just a desire to play, without anything particular in mind. The big breakthrough moment for me was sitting in my bedroom, Fender bass in hand, realizing that I could play along with "I Want You/She's So Heavy" off Abbey Road, and then "We Won't Get Fooled Again". The scale runs in those songs still influence my playing thirty years later. The next breakthrough was immersing myself in punk my senior year in high school. Note-for-note covers and traditional song formats went out the window, and anything that sounded good could work as a song. That's also still with me.

You know how I respond to Leo-era G&Ls. I have twenty-one G&Ls in the house, and only four are BBE-era. The last two purchases were a '98 ASAT Bass and a '00 L2K fretless, and they made a believer out of me. The overall build quality matches the best of my Leo-era instruments, and the finishes are beyond any comparison. I must admit that I prefer the tones I get from my very early L1K and L2KE, but I would still put these new basses up against any other production basses I've played from the last twenty years.

Ken

Thanks for jumping in this week. No lunch for me either. Much of my family is in NY, NJ, MD and FL so it is crazy. Crazy. When I was young, I played the trumpet and made instruments out of my dad's cigar boxes. Then percussion, then guitars. Who knows what next... I can't believe how inexpensive the new Black Ice guitars are! Check it out. I'm going to order one of them. They both (lefty offerings) are the same low price. Haven't decided yet.


Cheers,

Will

Hey Jon, nice to see you taking the LR's I hope that storm passes without doing anybody any harm.

You and Darwin have a lot of years one me! I first started playing guitar by watching concert videos. From there it was books full of tablature and guitar magazines - the British ones, especially Guitar Techniques, had some fantastic transcriptions in them. I don't feel like I learned much by simply learning from guitar tabs. It wasn't until I started learning stuff by ear and playing with other musicians that I really made progress as a player. It's the oldest method going but it really is, IMO, the most effective.

I have never played, nor seen in the flesh, a Leo-era instrument - the ones I own are BBE era. I do think there is perhaps a bit too much finish on them, but they are impeccably finished. I'm really looking forward to picking up one of the new thin finish models when one comes along that I have to own - the Black Ice ASAT Deluxe is almost exactly what I want, but I'd like a different body wood. The way they're pumping out new models recently I don't think I'll have to wait too long.

i started because of a guy in my class played guitar. 8th grade. i was only allowed to listen to classical til then. deep purple got to me. that guy in my class was my idol though, he had been playing for 5 years and was in a band. i got an acoustic after the first semester as a deal if i got straight a's. also started lessons. this was in february. in may i bought my first electric ( cheap czech made tele copy), in june i replaced my idol as the lead player in his band. in september i started 9th grade. my dad made a joke that if i got my highschool diploma in a year he'd buy me any amp i wanted. well, he did, not any, but the best that was available there at the time, a lab series L5. i also got a full time job to buy a brand new squier strat(japanese). it cost about 200 bucks, and there were 2 of them in the whole country. i borrowed the money from my uncle to put it on lay away, and 10 months of work as a janitor (my whole pay went towards it), and it was paid off. i still have it.

Hi Jon, thanks for picking up the reports this week. You're off to a great start.

As far back as I can remember I have gravitated towards music. I was always fascinated with the guitar. I grew up listening to Elvis, and when I was 12 I heard Kiss' Rocket Ride and Ace's solo blew me away. That was all it took to make me finally learn to play!

I wish I was around on the old board. I would have loved to hear what the hardcore collectors and historians had to say. But I really like the new board. I have learned a lot here, and a lot of the members have turned me on to new music that I would have never known about. There have been some great videos's posted here. I had never heard of Will until I found this place. Whenever I see his video's I am blown away watching him tear up his G&L's.

As far as Leo era vs. BBE, I am in the middle. I love the simple, classic look of the Leo's, but I think BBE have kept G&L current, and they are still making some outstanding guitars today. I like how they are experimenting with the new, thinner finish and the newer wood options.

Thanks,
Dave

Hey Jonc. Fantastic Monday.

Like KenC, we're in the teeth of an historic storm right now so I'm going to be brief. Me and the fam are trying to watch a whole (stupid) movie before the power goes out. Winds are 40 here right now, gusting to 70 mph. The rain is going sideways and me and the dogs just got soaked out there getting some business done....

In 1964 I started playing classical piano, but around this time I heard a song on the radio that sounds kind of stupid now, but I now realize that hearing it planted the guitar seed for a kid that wouldn't touch one for about ten years after (pun not intended).

http://youtu.be/sZG0NZviGvA

I'd try to imbed this properly if I wasn't so distracted at the moment.

Anyways, I started getting tired of piano at about 14 and quit. I took up guitar under the influence of singer/songwriters such as Jim Croce (Operator), Cat Stevens (Wild World), Gordon Lightfoot (Carefree Highway) James Taylor, Janice Ian and others.

I started out on a crappy nylon-stringed plywood thing borrowed from a friend who took a lesson and put it down forever. I played that until the wound strings unfurled, then got a decent Yamaha steel-string acoustic. I took a few lessons from my 7th grade math teacher, and this decent and talented fellow sold me his '66 Jag for a hundred bucks. I loved and played this guitar until into my high school's Stage/Jazz band, where it was stolen early in my Senior year. Being short on cash and with an immediate need for a replacement (and being a moron), I bought an LP copy (black, gold plated hardware) made by Bradley for a hunred bucks. It sucked but it was my only electric guitar until I purchased a decent Japanese made Charvelle in the middle 1980s.

What was the question? Oh, G&L. I love the Leo-era stuff and I love the newer BBE instruments. I just put my Yellow Fever Legacy down, and it made me smile big as always. I can't even imagine a more satisfying Strat-style guitar. It just sparkles and is so well-made and comfortable. One day I hope to learn to play bass so that I can enjoy the Leo-era SB-2 and L1K.

Anyhow, pray for us. We have very big trees all around our house and they are bending significantly right now. Back to the show! - ed

jonc,
Although I wasn't around to witness the old board, I have enjoyed the exchange of ideas and preferences on this one. I would like to reiterate my position from my earlier post since you brought it up. I don't have enough experience with the newer BBE guitars to offer much of an opinion or comparison. The few I've seen were well built instruments from what I could see but my preference remains with the Leo era models that I am familiar with. Are you or were you an original owner of a Leo era guitar? Otherwise your comparison to the fit and finish is somewhat unfair. The Leo era guitars that I was involved with are now 30 years old. Had you experienced these instruments when they left the factory, I believe your opinion of them would be different. I personally wrote a letter to Gibson asking them to refinish the back of my newly purchased Les Paul after I went to work for CLF because the sanding swirls left on the back of my instrument would have never passed our tolerances. The tech who refinished it later came to work for us. I am a big fan of technology making things simpler as long as quality doesn't suffer in the process. The water in a hand dug swimming pool is no wetter than the water in one dug with a backhoe. Technology should be used to reduce the time used for the mundane so as to have the proper time to concentrate on the processes that need more attention. Although the topcoats on all the guitars we produced while I was there were nitrocellulose, we had begun the process of applying base coats of urethane in order to reduce the amount of time and material needed to accomplish the results we were looking for. I would like to know what you consider a handful of standouts. Also, why did you say that you had many BBE guitars yet you only kept one? I would like to see G&L move in the direction that Leo , George and Dale were taking it, forward. Maybe it's just me but what I'm seeing looks like the instruments are Pre CLF Research in some ways. The ASATs are looking more like Teles with stamped steel bridges and alnico magnets etc. I am glad to hear that the Black Ice finish is reducing the cost of the instrument though. Usually a change like that is sold as an improvement and there is no cost reduction even though there is a significant cost reduction in labor and materials. I would hope that the NENA finishes are also reduced in cost to the consumer. Any one who has ever properly buffed out a guitar can tell you how much time and materials are saved by Satin or Oiled finishes. Whether you are a fan of the old or the new, G&L has been putting out fine instruments for many years and I suspect they will continue to do so for many more.

Hey Fred. Your insights are greatly appreciated as always.

But go back and re-read Jonc's original post. To me at least, it seems like his opinion of the Leo-era instruments is superlative, so that I don't think he'd change his perspective whether or not he was an "original owner."

Shifting gears, I didn't realize that back in the day there were "hybrid" nitro/poly finishes. I am no expert here, but I do not recall this (rather significant) fact being discussed, acknowledged, etc. in any formal way by the Company.

Regardless, can I buy you a beer or whatever? Ha! - ed

Fred, great info. Yeah, the Black Ice models are going for the least I've seen and I'm tempted. Otherwise, One of those spalted alder's is headed my way. Just have to decide legacy or ASAT...

interesting replies and greatly appreciated.

Darwin: when i started driving i had one of those FM converters that plugged into your AM radio. there's was a station out of St. Louis that had a great blues show on Sunday nights, but i could only get it when i parked my car in a certain position on the grass hill next to a public golf course. so i'm hanging out listening to the show with some friends and here come the cops. they take a look, roll by, reverse, stop and come over. they ask what the hell we think we're doing and i tell him straight out. we're listening to a blues show out of St. Louis and this is the only way i can pull it in. they said have a nice night and drove off.

Ken: thanks for the clip. i love stand up bass in just about every setting. can't slap to save my life though. my guess is you'll be slapping live before you know it!

Will: best to you and yours. not extremely fond of the black ice look myself, but definitely nice to see G&L going this route.

Blarge: sounds like you're another candidate for a black ice acquisition. what wood you looking for? is there a mahogany body available in black ice?

Louis: Hush was the first single i bought. heard it on the radio and had to have it. nice that you have that strat. they were, and still are really good guitars. great story too.

Rampage: the old board was really great and i personally miss it. but my real reason for mentioning the switch from old to new was more about what BBE needed to do to better promote G&L as a brand and to build a wider audience. the old board wasn't going to do that and most of us weren't buying new G&L's other than a few models like the ASAT Jr., ASAT 50, Blues Boy first run, etc. the new board has certainly bought a lot of new folks into the conversation and exposed them to the brand, and that's a very good thing.

Ed: ah good ol Peter Noone. Elroy (from the Jetson's) in real life. I loved the Hermits and pretty much every other British band of the era. just an incredible time for pop music.

Fred: my preference is also for Leo-era guitars and basses and what i meant by finish and "polish" has to do with the overall look and feel of the instrument. the Leo-era guitars and basses that I've owned have for the most part been stellar instruments and of very high quality as far as craftsmanship, materials and fit. no question there. the candy colors were beautifully done and both the 2 and 3 color bursts (cherry, tobacco) are exceptional. one of the most beautiful G&L's i had was the mahogany Cavalier given to Richard Smith by Leo that i posted a pic of a while back. but in my humble opinion this is offset by control plates that look awkward, thin and shallow necks that are not always the most comfortable, and an at times utilitarian look to the instruments. i think that BBE has addressed these in the guitars and basses they're making, and their birds eye necks, premier finishes, and woods are extremely well done. but i also agree that the designs are the old tried and true, and that we probably won't see a sickle head stock, a Cavalier or another X body. as to why only one BBE G&L left? i'll actually be mentioning that later in the week but short story is i wanted to get down to a certain number of instruments and my Leo G&L's took up every slot but one. that being the quilted Blues Boy from the original run.

I will try again to post because I got bumped off my computer earlier so that an update could be done to it.
Ed, I'm not sure that what I meant by original owner came through correctly. A nitro finish looks fantastic when it is new but over time it shrinks and depending on conditions, even cracks and yellows. If you were an original owner or had been in contact with an original instrument when it left the factory, you would see a vast difference in the way it looked then. We were very picky about what went out the door because the American guitar market had slipped during the seventies and we were making sure that what got built at G&L was as high a quality as you could get. The hybrid finishes began around '84 and I think that is how the misconception about the polyester finishes began to circulate. We were using a two part polyurethane, not polyester and never as a topcoat. At least not through the end of '85. Switch the beer to coffee and I'll take you up on that.
Jonc, As far as control plates go, I don't think you are going to find too many people defending the look of some of those. The S-500 was one of the best as far as the way it was made to look like an extension of the pickguard while still giving you access to the controls without removing or loosening your strings. I won't even mention my opinion of the G-200. I have always liked the look of rear loaded controls but for production reasons Leo and George were fans of control plates. Dale Hyatt can be thanked for rear loaded controls among other things that took place before I left. He also was behind the experimenting with the finishes including the red and black Intercepter. When I showed him how we could paint those without taping them, he put them into production right away. There were even a few pearl finishes that were done.
Anyway, good topics for discussion, keep it up.
Fred

Great stuff, Fred (as usual). Thanks! -ed

Fred: agree on the S500 and the G-200. I really wanted to like that guitar and it played and sounded really good. But man, talk about fugly. And thank god Dale was around. His value to the operation and a number of models was indispensable. That interesting about the black and red finish on the Interceptor. I always loved the way that looked.

I hope anyone near the storm has come through fine.
Only pre BBL guitars and basses are of interest to me. I put a caveat on that , if BBL manufacture a Jazzmaster I would buy it
Regards
Anthony

LeoF - If you have not tried a new G&L, you owe yourself the opportunity. Yeah, I'm with you on the pre-BBE Leo connection and all, but the new guitars that the company is putting out are crazy good - especially for the price. The new Legacy I acquired recently is just fantastic. Better than I expected for some reason, actually. I smile big when I have it in my hands, and for some time afterwards. Much like I do with my Leo-era instruments (though perhaps for different reasons). - ed