LR, Monday June 11, 2012

Hi gang,

Thanks again Woof for the nomination. It has been almost a year since my last stint so I guess it's about time again. Me and my team are in the final stages of finishing a prototype (a very nice one dare I say) of a new game that will be presented to the powers that are in the game company I work for. Pretty weird, beyond me being Dutch, to realize a nuclear scientist can end up at a game company. But at least I'm really good at modeling the physics In any case, I'm pretty swamped with it all so my apologies if I ever drop the ball this week.

Lunch:
Thai Monday; our weekly trek to Bell Thai to eat some decent or even good food for a reasonable price while talking shop.

G&L related
To not provide too much work, at least for the G&L part of the LR, I'll just present the last five additions to my collection. Some might have appeared elsewhere already but soit, c'est la vie. So today my ASAT Classic 'S'. It is one of the 25 Butterscotch Blondes produced in the 2007 Special Build run. Nice instrument, plays well, but not half as good as the '89 ASAT III I have. Might be the body difference, might be the difference in electronics, might be the Leo-era mojo. I seem to remember there was a thread recently about the pickup configuration, i.e. reverse wound vs. non-reverse wound, but I don't seem to be able to locate it. In any case, this is still the old configuration where the middle S-500 pup is wound in similar fashion as the neck pickup.



Here a pic of what's under the covers:


Non-G&L related
Or maybe it is. Last week, Dave (DartInvader) showed some nice pictures of some new Tribute models. And especially the Butterscotch Blonde ASAT Classic caught my eye, me being a sucker for that finish. But it evoked the following though: if this stuff looks so good and plays relatively so well, what reason would I have to ever buy American again? Cause lets be honest, there will be a craftsman, if not already than in the near future, working on that foreign build model too which will negate a lot of the 'but American build is just better' argument. Now, the moment that these workers realize they are craftsmen their salaries may go up and hence the price of the items they build but that may still take decades. In the interim, my question would still be relevant. Discuss amongst yourselves. (I feel like a teacher handing out an assignment now).

Check with you folks tomorrow.

- Jos

Edit: Noticed the aspect ratio in the 'timage' tags was completely wrong. Fixed it.

Last edited by yowhatsshakin on Sat Jun 16, 2012 4:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

it is a very valid question. i think that if g&l usa doesn't start making more options available, like neck heal contour, no pg, broader pup choices etc, it will become a major problem. the difference is that the usa made once you can order the way you want it. but it has to be mopre than just paint and woods, they need to make more available choices. if i have to settle even with the usa ones, screw that.

Discuss ................ I've never compared 2 similar modes of Tribute and US. I have a US ASAT and a tribute Classic. I have to say the US just feels like a more classy guitar in your hands but I'd have to have 2 of the same models to compare. Will it just end up like the Fender US v MX argument... most people would take the US just because............... i feel the tribute will always have that tag, unless of course they lose the "tribute" word...
btw that guitar in the OP is nice
john

Beautiful guitar & great question.

I had a quick, easy answer a few years back: "Always go with the USA build & you'll always get more guitar & enjoyment." When the Tribute series came out, it got rave reviews in Guitar Player magazine & other places, also. They were well made & toneful, but no match for the construction quality & tone of the Fullerton products. When the manufacturing of the series was moved from Japan to China, I began to notice a positive shift in looks & quality.

Over the last 10 years, I've owned a number of each type. I'm still hanging onto one Tribute Legacy that rivals any USA built Legacy any way I A/B them. I'm keeping it; just like I'm keeping my Spalted Maple Legacy.

I had never found a keeper Tribute ASAT - until 2 years ago. Until then, they reminded me much more of the Fender Squire series. Then I got hold of a Tribute ASAT Special with a carved top & deluxe finish all the way around. What a wonderful guitar. It feels, sounds, & plays as amazing as it looks. I simply could NOT make a case to spend the extra bucks to get the same thing made from Fullerton.

My answer, based solely on owning & playing a bunch of them over the past 2 years is:
~ there are some Tribute guitars that rival their Fullerton cousins & NOT worth the extra bucks
(only way to know is to play them side by side)
~ Tributes are BY FAR the best value you can find in a used guitar for anywhere near the money

Yeah I am also a sucker for butterscotch/blond and a blacl scratch plate.

As for the Tribby v. USA-made thing - the one thing you can count on is gear snobbery. I Woof am guilty of such at least when it comes to acoustics. Logic as well as my ears and hands tell me there are many offshore guitars that are fine instruimehts and can be had at a bargain at least when compared to similarly built US guitars. But I cannot bring myself to own anything but a made in the USA guitar and will gladly spend the extra bucks to get it.

I haven't played a lot of Tribute guitars, but the ones I have played have been nice. Now that all G&L guitars are made largely by machines country of origin becomes almost a moot point. The Korean Reverends I've played recently have been incredibly nice. Could see a mass exodus of production facilities from the USA in a couple of years.

Thats a good point about the craftsman, Jos. My dad owns a Tama (yes, the drum company) 12 string that was made in Japan some time in the '80s. The craftsmanship in the guitar is phenomenal, I wish I had some photos of it. All these people working in 'Far Eastern' guitar factories would be getting more skilled every day, and I have no doubt that there are many people in China, Indonesia and Korea who have got skills to rival the best in any other country.

it is a very valid question. i think that if g&l usa doesn't start making more options available, like neck heal contour, no pg, broader pup choices etc, it will become a major problem. the difference is that the usa made once you can order the way you want it. but it has to be mopre than just paint and woods, they need to make more available choices. if i have to settle even with the usa ones, screw that.

I agree with you louis. If foreign production takes care of the 'tread of the mill' versions of certain models, the US factory should be a 'Custom shop' in the truest sense, i.e. you can get an instrument in any relevant configuration possible. The only reason I use the word 'relevant' is that there are still certain limitations. As some outlandish example, you could build a 8 neck instrument but in all likelihood it would be completely unusable. But if I want to order a 12-string Z-3 or a baritone ASAT Special, that should be possible. Who knows, I guess Darth is fully aware of all the implications.

- Jos

Discuss ................ I've never compared 2 similar modes of Tribute and US. I have a US ASAT and a tribute Classic. I have to say the US just feels like a more classy guitar in your hands but I'd have to have 2 of the same models to compare. Will it just end up like the Fender US v MX argument... most people would take the US just because............... i feel the tribute will always have that tag, unless of course they lose the "tribute" word...
btw that guitar in the OP is nice
john

Thanks for you input oneeyedog! I must admit that I actually have never played a Tribute so I cannot compare either. All of my knowledge on how good Tributes are is based on pictures, reviews, and posts on this Forum and I cannot recall a single instance of somebody outright dissing the Tribbies. With the exception of a Japanese '81 Ibanez AW-25 12-string, I only own American build guitars. For a large part this preference for American built is based on having read Tom Wheeler's "The Guitar Book - A Handbook for Electric and Acoustic Guitarist" in Dutch print in my youth. And I always have had a similar kind of attitude as you: American just feels better. But I feel I always have to question my biases and premises. And I'm not so sure whether the Tribby will always have that tag. Compare the attitude toward Japanese cars in the mid '70's and now. Whereas then they might have been branded as 'cheap copies' , that attitude is completely absent right now with the Japanese major 3 (Toyota, Honda, and Nissan) giving the US big 3 (Ford, Chrysler, and GM) a run for their money. And I didn't even include Mazda ...

- Jos

Beautiful guitar & great question.

I had a quick, easy answer a few years back: "Always go with the USA build & you'll always get more guitar & enjoyment." When the Tribute series came out, it got rave reviews in Guitar Player magazine & other places, also. They were well made & toneful, but no match for the construction quality & tone of the Fullerton products. When the manufacturing of the series was moved from Japan to China, I began to notice a positive shift in looks & quality.

Over the last 10 years, I've owned a number of each type. I'm still hanging onto one Tribute Legacy that rivals any USA built Legacy any way I A/B them. I'm keeping it; just like I'm keeping my Spalted Maple Legacy.

I had never found a keeper Tribute ASAT - until 2 years ago. Until then, they reminded me much more of the Fender Squire series. Then I got hold of a Tribute ASAT Special with a carved top & deluxe finish all the way around. What a wonderful guitar. It feels, sounds, & plays as amazing as it looks. I simply could NOT make a case to spend the extra bucks to get the same thing made from Fullerton.

My answer, based solely on owning & playing a bunch of them over the past 2 years is:
~ there are some Tribute guitars that rival their Fullerton cousins & NOT worth the extra bucks
(only way to know is to play them side by side)
~ Tributes are BY FAR the best value you can find in a used guitar for anywhere near the money

Hey Jay,

You only add to my data I alluded to in my response to oneeyedog's post. And I know for sure I can trust your judgement. And it is not that all instruments form Fullerton are always hits. Some of them are misses too although either by somebody having an off-day at the factory (and who doesn't once in while) or things happening during transportation or some (unintended) mishandling at the dealer. For those paying attention on this forum, we have seen examples of each of these situations.

But maybe I should try me a Tribby one day

- Jos

Yeah I am also a sucker for butterscotch/blond and a blacl scratch plate.

As for the Tribby v. USA-made thing - the one thing you can count on is gear snobbery. I Woof am guilty of such at least when it comes to acoustics. Logic as well as my ears and hands tell me there are many offshore guitars that are fine instruimehts and can be had at a bargain at least when compared to similarly built US guitars. But I cannot bring myself to own anything but a made in the USA guitar and will gladly spend the extra bucks to get it.

I can relate to the snobbery part And as long as I don't do the experiment (see previous responses), I can always hide myself behind the fact that I don't know any better. But I realize more and more that excuse is just a cop out. So far, I have never come close to a PRS SE nor a Tribby, although I wish that these instruments were available in my cash-strapped teenage years because it would have provided me with an instrument superior to the crappy Hondo II LP knock-off I (tried to) learned the craft on. That one is long gone but more than likely either the SE or Tribby would still be with me to this day. But then again, I might have never build up a collection like a have now ...

- Jos

I haven't played a lot of Tribute guitars, but the ones I have played have been nice. Now that all G&L guitars are made largely by machines country of origin becomes almost a moot point. The Korean Reverends I've played recently have been incredibly nice. Could see a mass exodus of production facilities from the USA in a couple of years.

Thats a good point about the craftsman, Jos. My dad owns a Tama (yes, the drum company) 12 string that was made in Japan some time in the '80s. The craftsmanship in the guitar is phenomenal, I wish I had some photos of it. All these people working in 'Far Eastern' guitar factories would be getting more skilled every day, and I have no doubt that there are many people in China, Indonesia and Korea who have got skills to rival the best in any other country.

Hey Jamie,
Indeed, just give them time and they will knock your socks off (see my car manufacturing example in oneeyedog's response). It wouldn't surprise me that some of them will go independent to not be under the proverbial yoke of Western entrepreneurs and become independent builders with amazing products. Just you wait and see ... A good Japanese example would be Yairi guitars that are highly regarded long before they became into the Alvarez fold.

- Jos

I haven't played a lot of Tribute guitars, but the ones I have played have been nice. Now that all G&L guitars are made largely by machines country of origin becomes almost a moot point. The Korean Reverends I've played recently have been incredibly nice. Could see a mass exodus of production facilities from the USA in a couple of years.

Thats a good point about the craftsman, Jos. My dad owns a Tama (yes, the drum company) 12 string that was made in Japan some time in the '80s. The craftsmanship in the guitar is phenomenal, I wish I had some photos of it. All these people working in 'Far Eastern' guitar factories would be getting more skilled every day, and I have no doubt that there are many people in China, Indonesia and Korea who have got skills to rival the best in any other country.

Hey Jamie,
Indeed, just give them time and they will knock your socks off (see my car manufacturing example in oneeyedog's response). It wouldn't surprise me that some of them will go independent to not be under the proverbial yoke of Western entrepreneurs and become independent builders with amazing products. Just you wait and see ... A good Japanese example would be Yairi guitars that are highly regarded long before they became into the Alvarez fold.

- Jos

i have a yairi classical from the 70's. great guitar. brazilian rosewood back and sides, cedar top.

Jos, great to see you back! I am busy for a retired guy and a day late. My CFO has bestowed some projects on me!

That is a beautiful ASAT Classic S. I have one of the first run in a 3 tone SB with a lightly flamed GOT neck and RW fretboard. The GOT matches the light part of the SB perfectly. The dudes from Fender should see one of these. They are stunning.

The tribute series has rally developed into a class guitar. I recently looked at a carved top ASAT Special and it was sweet although a bit heavy. It was tempting. I don't find many that really talk to me, although a few of yours would do the job!!-- Darwin

The "Nashville" style does well w/ semi hollow. Great color too and like the light tint of the neck...

Foreign-builds? The Indonesian "factory" that built the Parker "PM" series proved your point(the QC issues were IMHO blown way out of proportion. Buyers just didn't like the 3x3 "snake head" headstock change). I'd confidently state that most US Parker owners also have at least one of these too...


Cheers,

Will

Hey Darwin and Will,

Thanks for checking in! The main reason for wanting a 2007 Butterscotch instead of any of the '04 ones (or any of the 75 others produced in the '07 run) is that in that case it would nicely fit in this 1-2-3 sequence :


- Jos

Edit: Also in this one the aspect ratio in the 'image' tag was wrong.

Last edited by yowhatsshakin on Sat Jun 16, 2012 4:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Nice. Not gonna see many photos like that And that ASAT 50 is my favourite

Wow-- Darwin

Beautiful guitar & great question.

I had a quick, easy answer a few years back: "Always go with the USA build & you'll always get more guitar & enjoyment." When the Tribute series came out, it got rave reviews in Guitar Player magazine & other places, also. They were well made & toneful, but no match for the construction quality & tone of the Fullerton products. When the manufacturing of the series was moved from Japan to China, I began to notice a positive shift in looks & quality.

Production of the Tribute Series did not move to China. There were three models which were built in China: Tribute Rampage Jerry Cantrell, Tribute ASAT HB, and Tribute Legacy HB (Drab Green finish with Floyd Rose bridge). Both the Tribute ASAT HB and Tribute Legacy HB (Drab Green finish with Floyd Rose bridge) have been discontinued. So, only the Tribute Rampage Jerry Cantrell is currently built in China. BTW, the Made in China Tributes have a serial number format of LYYMMXXXX.

Hope this helps.

... I cannot bring myself to own anything but a made in the USA guitar and will gladly spend the extra bucks to get it.

Zomby,
I think this might be calling your name -



here's the auction link:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-1970s-G ... 500wt_1237


Elwood