Tuesday, May 29, 2012

Wow, thanks for all the great responses yesterday. Good to hear from some ole buddies as well as some newer participants.

LUNCH: I'm joining a G&L-totin' buddy for lunch today at the local Irish Pub. Best burgers in town, so I'm gonna fall pray to that & wash it down with a pint of Blue Moon on tap. He will likely go for his usual bangers & mash with a Guiness. My friends, my son, almost everyone I ever drink with seem to love Guiness. I just don't like it. I likes me coffee dark roasted & me beers light.

G&L: 12 years ago I couldn't find anyone working in a guitar store around here who had a clue about G&L guitars. One salesman actually said to me "they're Fender's low-end entry level line" when I was asking about a used one in his store. This was BEFORE there was a Tribute line. It wasn't until I stumbled across Buffalo Brothers Guitars 11 years ago while vacationing with nearby relatives that I got a proper introduction. Mr Tim Page showed me at least 50 of them & told me everything about 'em. Then he left me alone to get acquainted properly. I spent 2 consecutive days in that store. A new tobaccoburst Comanche with a beautiful birdseye maple neck wouldn't let me leave with taking it home. Finding ONE G&L that truly called my name in a room full of them was THE toughest guitar decision I've ever made.

Q-1: How did your first G&L find you?

SONGWRITING: I love cyberspace. I now live in it. One of the e-buddies I've made & done both guitar AND lyric swapping with is Joe Wilson, who was a keyboardist with the Classics IV when they did "Spooky". He still writes songs with Randy Travis & some other folks who do it well. He also introduced me by phone to Brent Mason who is a first call session guy & one helluva picker. Anyway, several folks have insisted that I get this book for a reference "The Craft & Businesss of Songwriting" by John Braheny. A big book. I snagged a like-new one on eBay for about $10.

John is a music industry consultant & coach/mentor for many songwriters & performers. He has been a musician, songwriter, performer, recording artist, film composer, commercial jingles producer, music publisher, & a contributing writer for 2 different music magazines. He teaches songwriting classes at UCLA, Musicians Institute, & Grove School of Music, He has served several terms on the board of the Recording Academy [GRAMMY} Those in the writing & studio end of the business have high regard for him. I wanted to share a few of his thoughts with you for what it's worth.

John says there are NO rules or formulas for songwriting. For every "rule", you'll find plenty of songs that broke that rule & succeeded. Success means, rather, being aware of the principles [freedoms & restrictions] of the craft. The craft serves your imagination & knowledge serves your inspiration. He teaches the knowledge part. His answer to whether it is a "good" song is whether it makes someone laugh, cry, think about something in a new way, enrich a life, recall special moments, etc. Whether it sells is another measure of success..... one served by a huge industry. Big bucks can reward a successful writer's songs forever.

I'm only interested in the craft part at this point of my life. I'll leave the business end & all its legalities, complexities, & logistics for those with such a dream. Don't get me wrong, if I could choose between being either a totally successful singer, guitarist, or songwriter, I'd choose the songwriter mantle in a heartbeat. My perfect fantasy would be to accept a GRAMMY for "Song of the Year" & have the award presented to me by Catherine Zeta-Jones. I can't imagine a bigger fantasy than that. Well.......... uh.... since she's already there in the fantasy, I suppose I could........................

Q-2: Which ONE would you choose to be highly successful at - singing, playing, or songwriting?

HUMOR: Come on, folkz; more pics. If you can't post a pic, how about a drummer joke? Here is another fave in my files from this forum in earlier years. Here's how we redneck GbL'ers celebrate a birthday:



Jay

the craft is the knowledge. if course if he were that highly regarded, he'd be teaching at usc, not ucla. (fight on ) i don't think he teaches at the groove school of music, that closed in 1991. he is right though. there are no rules. rules and formulas came from analyzing the good songs and trying to find a way to recreate them. composers usually self impose a set of restrictions in order to make choices a little easier. i would suggest the "poetics of music" by stravinsky as a very good reading, an insight into the mind and creative process of one of the greatest composers of all time.

Question 1
My first G&L found me on E-bay, I was looking to replace my 78 Strat and George filled the bill.



Question 2
I have to agree with you on this one.

SONGWRITING: I love cyberspace. I now live in it. One of the e-buddies I've made & done both guitar AND lyric swapping with is Joe Wilson, who was a keyboardist with the Classics IV when they did "Spooky". He still writes songs with Randy Travis & some other folks who do it well. He also introduced me by phone to Brent Mason who is a first call session guy & one helluva picker. Anyway, several folks have insisted that I get this book for a reference "The Craft & Businesss of Songwriting" by John Braheny. A big book. I snagged a like-new one on eBay for about $10.

John is a music industry consultant & coach/mentor for many songwriters & performers. He has been a musician, songwriter, performer, recording artist, film composer, commercial jingles producer, music publisher, & a contributing writer for 2 different music magazines. He teaches songwriting classes at UCLA, Musicians Institute, & Grove School of Music, He has served several terms on the board of the Recording Academy [GRAMMY} Those in the writing & studio end of the business have high regard for him. I wanted to share a few of his thoughts with you for what it's worth.

John says there are NO rules or formulas for songwriting. For every "rule", you'll find plenty of songs that broke that rule & succeeded. Success means, rather, being aware of the principles [freedoms & restrictions] of the craft. The craft serves your imagination & knowledge serves your inspiration. He teaches the knowledge part. His answer to whether it is a "good" song is whether it makes someone laugh, cry, think about something in a new way, enrich a life, recall special moments, etc. Whether it sells is another measure of success..... one served by a huge industry. Big bucks can reward a successful writer's songs forever.

I'm only interested in the craft part at this point of my life. I'll leave the business end & all its legalities, complexities, & logistics for those with such a dream. Don't get me wrong, if I could choose between being either a totally successful singer, guitarist, or songwriter, I'd choose the songwriter mantle in a heartbeat. My perfect fantasy would be to accept a GRAMMY for "Song of the Year" & have the award presented to me by Catherine Zeta-Jones. I can't imagine a bigger fantasy than that. Well.......... uh.... since she's already there in the fantasy, I suppose I could........................

Q-2: Which ONE would you choose to be highly successful at - singing, playing, or songwriting?

Jay

I'd rather be a composer than a songwriter.
Thanks for the book review. Any more books we should have in our collection?
I am a big fan of Hindemith. Written in German, translated to English.

On my to do list.
USC teacher. Arnold Schoenberg http://www.amazon.com/Fundamentals-Musi ... 856&sr=8-9

What school someone teaches at makes no difference to me. Worthless. The real question is how they did in the real world.
Were they a successful entrepreneurial? If not, then they are like most other college teachers. Losers who have to be subsidized by the state.

arnold schoenberg was not a usc teacher (was a lecturer for one year), he taught at ucla. he did donate everything he owned to usc. hence the arnold schoenberg institute. i really despise schoenberg. he was talent free musically. he invented a way to compose for the tone deaf, which i absolutely believe he was. he wrote music to be analyzed not to listen to. do read stravinsky's poetics of music.

I likes me coffee dark roasted & me beers light.

Q-1: How did your first G&L find you?

Q-2: Which ONE would you choose to be highly successful at - singing, playing, or songwriting?

HUMOR: Come on, folkz; more pics. If you can't post a pic, how about a drummer joke? Here is another fave in my files from this forum in earlier years. Here's how we redneck GbL'ers celebrate a birthday:


Jay

I'm with you . . . while I like interesting beer, I'm not a dark beer guy at all.

My first G&L found me at Motor City Guitar. My eye caught a flame maple top Legacy, but I went home with a Comanche. I kind of wish I still had it. I never gave it much of a chance, but I never gave anything much of a chance back then. Boredom purchases . . . not good.

Oops . . . forgot question #2. I'd go with songwriter. You can still go out in public and not get attacked by hot women. On second thought . . .

Hey, I recognize that redneck cake and the guitar! NOW FOR SALE IN THE MARKETPLACE!

Last edited by Ches on Tue May 29, 2012 5:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

In terms of songwriting some bands are formulaic in a sense (that does not make them bad songs of course).

For example, I'm a fan of Richie Sambora - very skilled guitarist and musician. Lots of Bon Jovi songs go like

The Riff / hook
Verse
Pre chorus
Chorus
Verse
pre chorus
chorus
4-8 bar guitar solo
chorus
fade to end.....

However, it works.

Pink Floyd tend to do long compositions and often two solos per song (think Back to life and Comfortably Numb).

Despite this - these songs work time and time again. There is of course a lot more going on in these songs - but boiled down that's about it....

So on some levels there do appear to 'structural elements' but on other levels its what you do with them that makes the structure work.

I dont have a problem with artists using similar structures in songs - as long as the songs do not sound the same......

Looks like another fine week shaping up on the LR.

My first real guitar was a G&L - it came to me by way of a botched robbery. My f-100 was laying in the sidewalk when the cops responded to a music store robbery. The fiddle bandit got the case, and I got a very heavily discounted f-100. I don't know exactly what year I go the guitar--in my early teens, but I think the guitar sat around in the store unsold for many years.

Guitar Dreams
I always wanted to be a creative side-man, and still consider myself a picker first and foremost. But I have been working on writing for a while. Some of my favorite songs are VERY simple constructs, and I think that there is something very magic about creating a powerful simple song. Conversely, there are some very well constructed pieces that leave me cold--and versions of great songs that are lacking....

Loving the songwriting discussion, Jay. Thank you!

Q#1: I've told the story of how my first G&L found me many times: Briefly, mixing several beers with eBay late one evening, I decided I wanted a Tele with P-90's, then in the bright light of morning, found myself the owner of an ASAT Special (yes, I know the PUPs are not P-90's now). Anyway, I was not disappointed and was quickly researching G&L and the rest is history....

Q#2: Due to lack of coordination and discipline, I will never be a "real" player. But I've been writing songs with my brother for decades now, and being recognized for even one quality song is among my greatest ambitions.

The group of creative folks that you are involved with is truly fascinating, Jay. Quite a coup in finding these people - and vice-a-versa.

I strongly agree that there is no correct formula for a proper song. There's lots of stuff I'd like to share here, but given that much of our stuff is not properly protected, I hesitate.....

I will say that a good song has SOME message. Often, the simpler, the better. Here is the entire lyric of my brother Jeff Zolt's song, "Leave Her or Hide" (all rights reserved).

***********************

Leave her. Or hide.
Leave her. Or Hide.
Leave her. Or hide.

You'd better leave her or hide.
I'm gonna help you decide.

************************

The song has a strong hook, and is largely instrumental. It also conveys a simple, no-frills message.
I like it.

If you can recommend a book on marketing/publishing original songs in the digital age, lay it on me!

Humor: Since you took the torch from Ches, my contribution to your request for humor is a poster I did for Bri's birthday a few years back. Like a good song, I still like it and probably always will:
- ed

Humor: Since you took the torch from Ches, my contribution to your request for humor is a poster I did for Bri's birthday a few years back. Like a good song, I still like it and probably always will: - ed

Holy smoke, Ed. That picture is a few pounds ago! Looks like it was from one of the Michigan Jams.

Here's a motivational poster I made from one of the jams. Kinda sums up my feelings about the banjo . . .

Hey, I recognize that redneck cake and the guitar! NOW FOR SALE IN THE MARKETPLACE!

Yep, that's it. Gotta be the most beautiful guitar that ever came out of Fullerton. Wonderful tone. Looks great with a redneck birthday cake, don't it..........?

If you can recommend a book on marketing/publishing original songs in the digital age, lay it on me!

Love the song; love the poster. I think I saw that in a Post Office somewhere............LOL!

I don't have a better book to recommend than the one in my post. I'd say contact that author to get a referral.

Always good to read your posts, Ed

j

Loving the songwriting discussion, Jay. Thank you!

Q#1: I've told the story of how my first G&L found me many times: Briefly, mixing several beers with eBay late one evening, I decided I wanted a Tele with P-90's, then in the bright light of morning, found myself the owner of an ASAT Special (yes, I know the PUPs are not P-90's now). Anyway, I was not disappointed and was quickly researching G&L and the rest is history....

Q#2: Due to lack of coordination and discipline, I will never be a "real" player. But I've been writing songs with my brother for decades now, and being recognized for even one quality song is among my greatest ambitions.

The group of creative folks that you are involved with is truly fascinating, Jay. Quite a coup in finding these people - and vice-a-versa.

I strongly agree that there is no correct formula for a proper song. There's lots of stuff I'd like to share here, but given that much of our stuff is not properly protected, I hesitate.....

I will say that a good song has SOME message. Often, the simpler, the better. Here is the entire lyric of my brother Jeff Zolt's song, "Leave Her or Hide" (all rights reserved).

***********************

Leave her. Or hide.
Leave her. Or Hide.
Leave her. Or hide.

You'd better leave her or hide.
I'm gonna help you decide.

************************

The song has a strong hook, and is largely instrumental. It also conveys a simple, no-frills message.
I like it.

If you can recommend a book on marketing/publishing original songs in the digital age, lay it on me!

Humor: Since you took the torch from Ches, my contribution to your request for humor is a poster I did for Bri's birthday a few years back. Like a good song, I still like it and probably always will:
- ed

ed, your stuff is protected the moment it is created. posting it here would establish date of creation, so does youtube, as it would prove existence at that time and if someone tried to steal it after that, it would actually make your case, so it should not be a problem. sending in the registration to the library of congress is also very easy.

SONGWRITING: I love cyberspace. I now live in it. One of the e-buddies I've made & done both guitar AND lyric swapping with is Joe Wilson, who was a keyboardist with the Classics IV when they did "Spooky". He still writes songs with Randy Travis & some other folks who do it well. He also introduced me by phone to Brent Mason who is a first call session guy & one helluva picker. Anyway, several folks have insisted that I get this book for a reference "The Craft & Businesss of Songwriting" by John Braheny. A big book. I snagged a like-new one on eBay for about $10.

John is a music industry consultant & coach/mentor for many songwriters & performers. He has been a musician, songwriter, performer, recording artist, film composer, commercial jingles producer, music publisher, & a contributing writer for 2 different music magazines. He teaches songwriting classes at UCLA, Musicians Institute, & Grove School of Music, He has served several terms on the board of the Recording Academy [GRAMMY} Those in the writing & studio end of the business have high regard for him. I wanted to share a few of his thoughts with you for what it's worth.

John says there are NO rules or formulas for songwriting. For every "rule", you'll find plenty of songs that broke that rule & succeeded. Success means, rather, being aware of the principles [freedoms & restrictions] of the craft. The craft serves your imagination & knowledge serves your inspiration. He teaches the knowledge part. His answer to whether it is a "good" song is whether it makes someone laugh, cry, think about something in a new way, enrich a life, recall special moments, etc. Whether it sells is another measure of success..... one served by a huge industry. Big bucks can reward a successful writer's songs forever.

I'm only interested in the craft part at this point of my life. I'll leave the business end & all its legalities, complexities, & logistics for those with such a dream. Don't get me wrong, if I could choose between being either a totally successful singer, guitarist, or songwriter, I'd choose the songwriter mantle in a heartbeat. My perfect fantasy would be to accept a GRAMMY for "Song of the Year" & have the award presented to me by Catherine Zeta-Jones. I can't imagine a bigger fantasy than that. Well.......... uh.... since she's already there in the fantasy, I suppose I could........................

Q-2: Which ONE would you choose to be highly successful at - singing, playing, or songwriting?

Jay

I'd rather be a composer than a songwriter.
Thanks for the book review. Any more books we should have in our collection?
I am a big fan of Hindemith. Written in German, translated to English.

On my to do list.
USC teacher. Arnold Schoenberg http://www.amazon.com/Fundamentals-Musi ... 856&sr=8-9

What school someone teaches at makes no difference to me. Worthless. The real question is how they did in the real world.
Were they a successful entrepreneurial? If not, then they are like most other college teachers. Losers who have to be subsidized by the state.

i don't care where they teach either (hence the mr green in the post), what matters is how good they are. but when you are a trojan, you take every opportunity to pick on the bruins.
commercial success is also not a necessary indicator of a good teacher. some become successful through no fault of their own, and still know little about the subject. others know a great deal, they can teach really well, but didn't become a commercial success. since there is a lot of luck in this business ( a lot of very talented people don't make it, and untalented ones do at times), i don't put all the weight on that either. it is simply what they know.

just catching up on yesterday!
Q1. !st G&L.......... I had inherited a Rickenbacker that i just couldn't get on with, didnt like the sound or the feel of the guitar. Anyway it lay in its case for year or two and I was feelin guilty about having this guitar left to me and it not geting played. My wife suggested that I swap it for something that I would play and that way I'm not giving the gift away or selling it... made sense to me! I'd wanted a quality Telecaster so I advrertised for a swap... got a few call but no-one like the Rik! Then a guy gets in touch with a 1986 G&L ASAT and after some research (as I'd never heard of them) I took the plunge........... best decision ever

Q2. Love to be a better guitarist. I sem to have levelled out and cant move forward most frustrating!! success would be nice but just to have some improvement would be good!

john

some songwriters are terrific, yet they are real dicks. John Mayer comes to mind, here's how I think of him,



As far as humour goes, this one gets me every time, sorry if its offensive to anyone!

some songwriters are terrific, yet they are real dicks. John Mayer comes to mind, here's how I think of him,



As far as humour goes, this one gets me every time, sorry if its offensive to anyone!

john mayer is a douchebag, but the guy can sure play. and has some wicked tone.

that pic is offensive to unattractive flat chested women everywhere. that girl would turn anyone retarded though. that is a good looking as it gets.