Lunch Report, Tuesday, 04-26-10

I am not certain of lunch today. I am posting early because of a Dr. appt. and eye exam. I had to fast last night and this morning so if I walk by someone on the way out of the building that is eating a sandwich, I may snatch it! Edit: Sorry that I'm a year off on the date. I can't edit it after it is posted.

G&L content today. I am posting two pictures and these are five guitars that are Leo Fender guitars and I am wondering why such a difference in length.

and a closeup of the same guitars.


They are left to right. 2008 Musicman, Petruuci, a 2010 Fender Tele, A 2007 G&L F-100 Return, A 2004 ASAT Classic S, and a 1999 Musicman Axis Sport. These guitars are all sitting at the same height and are all 25.5 scale guitars. The shortest is the Axis Sport on the right at about 5 1/2 inches shorter than the F-100, the longest. The ASAT is almost an inch shorter than the F-100. The Tele is shorter than both G&Ls but longer than either Musicman. The Petrucci is lest than an inch longer than the Axis. This may seem like a stupid question but I am curious. I happen to like the short AXIS, especially on a crowded stage. All of them are balanced well. What do you think of this and do you have a preference. I wonder what Leo was thinking.

Non G&L question is what do you think of tube preamp into solid state for sound? Some amps have a tube preamp. My thoughts on this question have changed on this concept since I started experimenting with my Cyber Twin Se. Please share any experiences that you have had with this and what was the amp that you were using. I will also mention that I use a Vox Tonelab to shape my tone and then direct to the Digi Rack for recording. The Tone Lab has a tube preamp.

For music today, I am sharing some more of our CD. I failed to warn you yesterday that we are a 50s, 60s and some 70s cover band. On Friday I will play an original of ours.
The first is a favorite of mine, a song done by Marty Robbins in the early 60s. It is done by Mike and I do the background vocals on this. A White Sport Coat.

04 White Sport Coat.mp3

Next is a Paul Anka tune, Diana. Again, done by Mike

13 _Diana.mp3

The last song today is an instrumental done in the late 50s, or very early 60s by Jorgen Ingram called Apache. I am not sure of the spelling. Steve does this on my 2006 Ovation Collector FKOA, an acoustic that I gave to my daughter. This Ovation had some grit in this song.

10 Apache.mp3

I know that most of the songs I am posting this week were performed long before a lot of you were born. I bet there some of you old timers that know every one of them. So bear with me , there are only three days to go and tomorrow is Lowender Day for us bass dudes. We may be a minority on this board but we drive the band and I sticking to it.

Hi Darwin:

Salad for lunch today.

Really enjoying your music, thanks for posting.

I love the picture of you guitars, very nice. First thing I noticed was that the height difference is all related to the headstock. Nuts are fairly aligned and only out byt the difference in size of the bodies. Of course that would make sense given the fretboards.

It also seems that even though they might have shorter heads, the heads are thicker, giving approximately the same amount of wood. Maybe that's why they are all so balanced?

Its magic.

Can't comment on your amp question, don't have a solid state amp.

Would love to know more about your working career. I too was a techie, networking engineer, IBM, BANK, Startup and finally Cisco Systems.

Big Shadows fan thanks for Apache! If you have not heard it, or better yet seen the dvd, grab Jeff Beck's Rock and Roll Party honoring Les Paul, he does a killer job of Apache. DVD has more songs than CD btw.

I guess length does matter for guitars. Did not realise the F-100 was longer, very interesting.

Pre-amp... have only heard the SS amps with preamps in stores but it does add a some depth to the tone and overall better sound IMHO. What is your opnion of the Cyber Twin since you've had ot for a while, assuming you still have it?

Different headstocks and different lengths of body after the bridge (this is mostly just headstocks). Pretty sure a petrucci is not a leo designed guitar though. Some folks think larger headstocks increase sustain. The more string you have outside the scale length (behind bridge or nut) also effects how the string feels when bending and such.

Solid state power sections are fine as long as you don't clip them and have a very good preamp (most mesas are 95% preamp sound, for example). If you start driving it hard they get inefficient after '1/2' way though. I wouldn't want it clipping for sure either.

>>I wonder what Leo was thinking.<<

I think I know the answer: "They're never going to find an aftermarket case that fits this one!"

I've been using a solid state amp (a Roland JC-120) for the last six months or so. I thought about going the tube pre-amp route, but after trying a Carl Martin compressor in front of it I didn't give it any more thought. The compressor warms it up very nicely, especially with the ASAT Classic. I guess I could have gotten about the same result with the right tube pre-amp, though.

Those are great recordings, Darwin. Which instruments are you using on them?

Ken

Never thought about length but scale plays a role for me. There is a pretty big difference between the feel of say a Gibson and a Fender.

There are time swhen I think a tube preamp and s/s amp may be the way to go. Standel made an exceptionally cool hybrid amp in the early 1960s In terms of all s/s amps about the best I have ever played through were also Standels.

Hurm, looks like I am with Sirmyghin. more of a body to bridge difference then a neck difference. I use a Vibrochamp XD and although it is a hybrid it certainly doesn't take much to get that meaty clean sound I like, some of the distortion amp presets are not exactly the best and I guess the real advantage of that cyber Twin SE is you can adjust the presets to your liking, I have only seen one and didn't get a chance to plug in but from what I saw it looked like it had a decent set of controls on it.

Length - The f-100 is longest 25.5'' scale guitar I have ever come across, and is a pain to get a case for if you loose yours...

tube preamp --> ss power. Can be great. My brother does that on his bass rig these days and his sound is outrageous. I will post what kind of pre amp he uses. It was designed for radio or some darn thing. I will ask him and report back later in the week.

Apache - Hey, that's the first song I ever learned to play on guitar! I didn't do it so good, though. I wonder if I can find it in my mind behind all the whiskey in the past 20 years, it will be fun to give it a shot!

cheers all...

My Ibanez GR-520 Ghostriders are fairly compact guitars. They have the Gibson 24.75 " (or so) scale, and deep cutaways to provide upper neck access; even though the bridge and tailpiece are mounted closer to the butt end of the guitar. I think this design contributes greatly to the strings driving the top harder, and it one of the reasons these guitars are so resonant. I think if this design was built using the quality of woods and finishing that Gibson uses on there Historic VOS guitars, the results would be astonishing.

One of the things I like about Les Pauls is the placement of the neck pickup under the 24th fret harmonic. It gives a fuller tone, yet not all Gibsons have their neck pickup in that position. Some of Leo's guitars do, and some don't. Compare my ASAT Deluxe to the LP, and you'll really hear a difference in the harmonic structure of the notes. Yeah, yeah, yeah--bolt versus set neck--but the pickup position is the dominant factor, in my opinion. So, do you want the fuller tone of the pickup under the 24th fret or the clearer tone produced by having the neck pickup closer to the bridge? Ain't it great to have choices!

But I hear you about the compact AXIS Sport. I compact guitar can be a very handy thing, and sometimes they just fit your body so well. I love my Ghostriders, but I don't take them on a lot of gigs, as they are really rare, almost irreplaceable. The LPs I have are a lot more expensive--but they're a dime a dozen in comparison.

I think that if I had to start using my old SUNN Solos II (SS) again, I might try using one of the inexpensive tube mic preamps available today, like the Presonus. (There's another one, but I cant remember the brand.) I'd set it on the amp and just run a patch cord to the amp's input. Might give it just a little more warmth; however, the preamp on the Solos II is MOSFET, which is about as close to a tube as SS gets. The tube mic preamps run at about $100 or less, so what have you got to lose? And if you really wanted to experiment with some distortion, how about running two tube mic preamps into the other. Run the first one full up for gain, and put it's output into the second unit. Instant Mesa Mark I--cascading gain stages!!!

A lot of the old Peavey amps had pretty good efx loops. Use one of the Mesa tube preamps (like the Quad, Studio, Formula, Rec, V-Twin, or even the Tri-axis)--and you'd definitely have a much warmer sounding rig.

Bill

I have a Vox Valvetronix AD30VT which is similar to the Tonelab and has a tube preamp. It sounds OK for what it is. It doesn't sound any better than my old Yamaha G50-112 which is a solid state amp, and it certainly does not sound better than my Swart AST.

Apache is one of my favorites too. Same as Sickbutnottired Apache was the first song I learned to play; actually it was the first instrumental song I learned to play. I did strum chords along to other songs before then. My brother and I used to switch off on Apache. One would play rhythm on a crappy acoustic while the other played lead on a crappy electric; but it was the most fun we had. We learned from the Shadows' version. I still play the tune every once in a while.

Kit

I like solid state amps. I don't think they need a tube pre-amp to sound good. However, when I got the ZT earlier this year I did find myself buying pedals at an alarming rate to get the best sound out of it. Now I'm on to a different tube amp and they're all redundant.... I still prefer the sound of a tube amp overall - there's just something about that shimmer.

Apache is such a classic song. Anything the Shadows did is classic and Hank Marvin is a hero of mine. He resides in the hills of Western Australia these days in a beautiful town. I remember once seeing him in Perth city driving a 'phat' gold Mercedes. Great, great, great guitarist. Has some killer stage moves too.

For your amusement

[youtube]f6tnj7IEI0E[/youtube]

Length - The f-100 is longest 25.5'' scale guitar I have ever come across, and is a pain to get a case for if you loose yours...

Regarding the case: no longer a pain! The new Deluxe Tolex case for the current F-100 will work
for the original F-100's and the original old body style S-500's (1988 - 1991), as well.
You should be able to order one of the new cases from your favorite G&L dealer.

Hope this helps.

The more string you have outside the scale length (behind bridge or nut) also effects how the string feels when bending and such.

That's good info Sirmy. I've always wondered why my G&L's seem 'stiff' to bend compared with their Fender brethren. I've tried Graphtech nuts, lighter gauge strings, tremelo adjustments etc. etc. and never had a lot of success in making the G&L's feel more 'supple'. If it's the geometry causing it I guess there's not much I can do about it.

I've considered getting a tube pre to warm up my SS amp, but most cheaper tube pre's are 'starved plate' designs that don't really run the tubes at high enough voltage to mimic the glorious tone of a tube amp. By the time you've spent $$$ on a tube pre that isn't starved plate you could have bought a decent tube amp. As far as starved plate designs go, I've heard good things about these. I'm quite happy with SS for clean sounds, so I'll remain old-fashioned for now and just plug straight in .

Thanks for your answers today. I think the answer that you couldn't buy aftermarket cases is interesting. I also appreciate the thoughts on tube preamps. I didn't realize that Mesa was using stages of preamps for voicing.

Answers to specific questions today are:
Astutzmann, I worked in the computer industry for 37 years. I stated with Univac, which became Sperry, which became Unisys and I worked in repairing hardware, operating systems, Microcode and sytems and applications programming. I am now an obsolete everything and love being retired. Glad that you are enjoying the music.

To Sam and several others, it appears that Apache is a hit.

KenC asked which instruments I used on the recordings. Mostly Fender as I did not own a G&L while recording. I did the lead on Its So Easy with an Ovation VXT, actually a sweet guitar that never caught on and is now my daughters.

Blarg, the video was amusing. Nothing is in sync with the video. Good tune and done well. Are these ladies all over the down under land?

Philby, I think I understand Sirmys logic but if the do, the longest head above the nut is G&L, especially the F100, therefore is should have the easiest bending. I think that you feel that the Fender is easier to bend. Someone will straighten us out! Craig, where are you when things really get serious! The only thing I know for sure is that I was a starved plate this morning. I cleaned out the refrigerator when I got home from the doc. I am not into fasting.

Boogie Bill sheds some light on pickup placement. I think that the jigs on Leos desk indicated that he was into that.

If we all knew what made these things tick, we would design our own.

Check in tomorrow!-- Darwin

Last edited by darwinohm on Tue Apr 26, 2011 7:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Thanks for the recordings Darwin, they sound great, and beautiful guitars b y the way!

What was Leo thinking? - My first thought is that Leo was a constant tinkerer maybe he was just experimenting

Soild state/tube pre-amp: out of the ones I've tried (vox, peavy, crate) I haven't been impressed. To my ears a true valve amp just sounds better.

-Dave

Thanks for your answers today. I think the answer that you couldn't buy aftermarket cases is interesting. I also appreciate the thoughts on tube preamps. I didn't realize that Mesa was using stages of preamps for voicing.

Preamps are always a fair portion of the 'voice' of an amp, but a good master volume amp, without power scaling, is going to have to be almost all preamp. Otherwise it is going to sound like beans at low volumes know matter how hard you try. This leads that a lot of the modern amps, that you can play 'bedroom' or stage volume with, that are tube based, are built around really fancy pre's.

Keep an eye out for the new Mini head from Hughes and Kettner, the Tubemeister 18 (has 18,5 or 7, 1 and 0 W modes, 0 is sort of direct out for recording, no volume). This thing looks promising.

Some interesting questions. On the length issue it might be as simple as making sure nobody can 'mistake' the one for the other (see e.g. Gibson Guitar Corp. vs. Paul Reed Smith on the Les Paul vs Singlecut). And maybe Leo came to the conclusion that more wood was better. Or given a certain placement of the pickup in the body with a certain optimal distance from the bridge for the best sounding result dictating how much the neck would be sticking out. Just guessing ...

Cannot contribute to the tube pre-amp into solid state power amp question. Only have all tube

Great tunes again Darwin!

- Jos

Philby...check out the Duncan Twin Tube Classic...high voltage running into little mil-spec tubes...
i've done a lot of experimenting with tube preamp pedals into SS amps...they always make it sound better but i was never satisfied until the Mesa V-Twin...but when i bought the Twin Tube...i quickly sold the V-Twin which i'd had for years...i've also had the Twin Tube in front of great Mesa and Fender amps...
Ken...i'm also a fan of the Carl Martin Comp...

I've owned a couple of modelling amps over the past few years, but those are digital into SS, not tube into SS. And my other amps for the past number of years have been all tube. So I can't speak much to that. But I agree with Sirmy that the preamp plays a pretty important role in today's amps. And contrary to what I've always believed, I've learned that a number of well known professional guitarists aren't cranking their amps on tour these days...they are able to get the tones they want at reasonable volumes. So based on that, it would seem that a tube pre into an SS power amp would have possibilities!

Pretty sure a petrucci is not a leo designed guitar though.

Unless I'm mistaken, neither of the 4+2 headstocked Music Man guitars are Leo Fender designed.

Brock, you may be right. I just assumed that Leo had influence in the design of these guitars. I personally like the overall length, especially the AXIS Sport.-- Darwin.

I can only offer insight to the amp question. The transformer on my vintage Traynor YGM 3 blew a few years back and took the tubes with it. I never repaired it as I wasn't crazy about its sound to begin with. In the meantime, I acquired an Ibanez Troubadour solid state amp for acoustic guitars through a trade and I loved how clean it sounded with my electric. (Then a Gibson Sonnex 180). I ran a digital multi-effects pedal through it for a while but wasn't crazy about the tone, then I remembered that the Traynor had with a separate 3-tube spring reverb/pre-amp head that was still working, so I plugged it in between the guitar and the Ibanez amp and it was magic. I like to keep effects to a minimum and I don't like to overdrive my sound, so a touch of reverb is all I really need.

To further complicate the kludge, I unplugged the Ibanez's internal speaker and routed the amp's output through the blown Traynor's vintage cone and now I've got the best of both worlds: the clarity of solid state and the warmth of vintage tubes. As a bonus, I don't have to crank this sucker to get the sounds I want. I had to set the traynor at earsplitting levels to get the tone I was after. I can play through this combo without bothering my other half or the neighbours.

That's my two cents on this topic.

CGT, I am not surprised by your findings. I really like the Cyber Twin SE and rarely use my Twin Reverb anymore. I do like the sound of the Roland synth through the Twin Reverb. Thanks-- Darwin