Lunch Report, November 30, 2010: Ruby Tuesday?

Hi gang,

Thanks to all who participated yesterday. And, not entirely unexpected, no clear winner in the poll.

Lunch
We have PopCamp going on: a week in which people can work on prototyping crazy ideas to create new games, improve processes, or just implement this could little thing that would make our infrastructure better. Frequently food is provided, as it was today: sandwiches. But is's rainy and dreary here in downtown, so with a bunch of us we went to Kushibar for Tonkotsu Ramen. Very tasty and nourishing.

Non-G&L related
When Keith Richards brought the first '59 LP to the UK it was a second-hand instrument. Many of the other LP's that were used by the likes of Peter Green, Eric Clapton, and Jimmy Page were snatched up out of pawn shops in the days when the lads of the British Invasion were touring the US for the first time because nobody liked these guitars. For the Strat it might be a little different because Hank Marvin of The Shadows was an endorsee having been inspired by Buddy Holly. So the iconic sounds we are hearing in records of the '60' and '70's that popularized these models were recorded with instruments that were somewhere between 5 and 20 years old, not 40 or 50 or 60! Still, the '52 Tele seems unbeatable, the same for '54-'61 Strats, and the 50 year old '59 and '60 Bursts are commanding the most money. It is hard to believe that Emerald City Guitars here in Seattle has one of each. That is more than half a million in the store right there! And unlike Jamie (blargfromouterspace), I haven't had the guts yet to ask to play either one.

But it looks to me that I should be looking for a 10 year instrument in its prime if I want to a good guitar. Certainly now the manufacturing process has improved so much. Or is it the wood quality that makes the difference given that likely more old-growth was used in the early production years? And what would you consider to be the Stradivarius of our time? Or asked differently, if in 400 years composition by the great 20th century rock composers are performed, what would be the instrument the musicians of a future day would hunker for? I have given some obvious choices in the poll, but provide your own candidates if you have one.

G&L related
The previous allows me to segue to New Old Stock. I recently purchased an '85 Broadcaster from Gary Maki, aka Josey Wales (pucture courtesy of Gary):

Unplayed, wrap around the neck and plastic on pickguard still in place, original strings and hangtag, envelope with Manual etc. still stapled shut. So here's the quandary, do you start playing a guitar that couldn't be more N.O.S. and (potentially) decrease its 'investment' value? Or do you store it away and leave it is as some kind of time capsule? I decided that for me the most value was added by being able to play it. I may be a collector, but I'm not too much into museum pieces. And once again I was blown away by the sound of a Broadcaster. But what would you do?

Talk to you later!

- Jos

Edit: fix image link after album was lost.

Last edited by yowhatsshakin on Mon Dec 19, 2011 12:42 am, edited 2 times in total.

You play that guitar no questions asked. A guitar is worth nothing if all it does is sit around as an investment. Guitars do not have an intrinsic value, it is what you get FROM the guitar that has value. If it is not giving you anything, it may as well be firewood.

I put the first broadcaster/nocaster as the strad of the time, it was the first production model and still pops up, it is obviously one of the big 3. Ricks I ruled out as they are so dang hard to get ahold of nowadays. I have seen one bass in person, and it was used and wrong handed (a McCartney). Would love one, but Ricks, while popping up from time to time are not what I associate with Iconic. The early instruments from Fender however, not sure now that I think about it would be iconic. Considering the innovation is what made them, not the quality of materials necessarily. Gibsons early guitars were more the looks beautiful/art approach than fenders by far. In the end, we still don't know why Strad's rock, or if they were even awesome or saught after in their time as they are now. Strads seem more legendary than actually amazing nowadays from what I have gathered also.

I actually edited my lunch too. It's harder when it's already been eaten. The poll is a little different than the non-G&L question. I think they would want to play period-specific guitars for that music; most likely a simulation of them. You know, like those pedals and amps that state you can sound like more expensive gear. I'll probably still be around, so we'll see.

So, you went for it and unwrapped the Broadcaster. I'd be tempted too. Oh well...


Cheers,

Will

P.S. Craig, please add some more BBCodes: http://www.sitepoint.com/forums/misc.php?do=bbcode

Last edited by willross on Tue Nov 30, 2010 3:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I'd play that guitar. To me, that's the point of owning it. I've got my newly acquired ASAT Classic haning on the wall to be played.

RickT

I have always felt that the FIRST DING is the hardest (sounds like the song "first cut is the deepest"!) ~ and once I get through that initial horror then I relax and play the heck out of it. One of the guitars I leave out to play in my home office 90% of the time has dings and wear from kids (2 yr old age) bumping it off the stand ~ or asking if they can play (the answer is always yes) and they use a pick and hit the wood (age 4) and so on. So I'm not the only force that dings a guitar in the house.
Tim

I can relate to this Tim, I was rather upset with the first ding or 2 on my bass (you know that perdy red one). Now it has 5-6 (albeit 3 are from the edge of my wooden armless practice chair on the back above the edge). I stopped caring much when I decided it just adds to the instrument. They sort of tell a story when you are done with them. Since that instrument though, the others get the same treatment. I am careful with them, but well, stuff happens.

Lordy I recall when you could buy a late 1950s burst Lester or Fender Broadcaster for easily under $1K.

I ain't with guitars as investments. First, I want to play 'em and second I would feel like an idiot if twenty years down the road I ain't played uit and it is still worth what I paid for it.

I don't worry about dings and such. My guitars tend to show every mile put on them. Not a day goes by though that I don't wish they looked like they did when they rolled out of the factory.

For the poll - I went with other, my choice being a late 1930s Martin 14 fret dread.

That Broadcaster is gorgeous! it's exactly what I'd like to own one of these days, especially with the maple neck.
I agree with your decision Jos, I know I would not be able to resist playing it. Citing Tim's post, I'm not very rough on guitars, something like that would not leave the house or probably even my music room.
I always think about my first gig, I brought along my electric acoustic that I'd had for about 14 years, some fool knocked over a PA speaker on it and snapped the headstock right off It wasn't an expensive or collectible guitar but I write most of my music on it so it has a lot of sentimental value. Luckily my music shop knew a luthier from the local Guild factory that closed down, he did an exceptional job repairing the neck but it still has the scars and I'm more cautious about which guitars come out with me now.

I went with the early 50's esquire/broadcaster/tele for the pole. They are all great choices and I'm sure a case could be made for each one, but to me the tele is beautiful in it's simplicity.

My great Aunt actually has/had a Stradivarius, it was her father or Grandfather's, I can't remember. I never got to hear it, she's 94 and in a nursing home now and her not so honest nephew took hold of her estate, I'm certain I will never see or hear of it again. Never hearing such a fine instrument's voice is a crime (not to mention the actual crime involved) so enjoy that Broadcaster Jos, it deserves it as much as you do

-Dave

Just got back from Lunch. We went to Kushibar, a Japanese restaurant specialized into ramen, udon, and katsu instead of sushi. Pretty good.

So far I'm not in the minority in playing the Broadcaster but then again there might be enough people out there that call me a fool. I made the choice now and there is no turning back. I take very good care of my instruments and beyond some pick swirl most have no nicks what so ever. But when it happens I don't care too much about it either. When I spill something on a new or clean piece of apparel, my standard excuse is that I did that on purpose so I don't have to worry about dirtying it anymore! When my wife bought a car about 7 years ago, it had a big dent in the rear bumper. We got a sizable discount so we could replace it but never did. Similar kind of reasoning. I wouldn't go that far to promote to deliberately put a dent, stain, or scratch on something new but in some quirky kind of way it gives peace of mind.

As far as vintage instruments for investments is concerned: hindsight is 20-20. I don't even think these British boys knew what they were buying. They just needed instruments. And then Jim Marshall came along and the world was never the same. And although I now play a Broadcaster that until last month was a 'virgin' in the musical sense, it is still better that what happened to Broadcaster #1.

In the classical world, there are several orchestras and ensembles that I know playing pieces using time-correct instruments: spinets, particular kind of flutes, etc. The reason I added the Beatles option is that I foresee them extend the 3 B's to 4 B's: Bach, Beethoven, Brahms, and Beatles. And if time correct instruments are to be used, it will be Hohner, Ricks, and the Casino that people will be looking for. Then on the other hand, more than likely it will be those instruments that hold up the best, or are engineered the best, because the rest of them have slowly disintegrated and will just not survive. Maybe an '85 Broadcaster is the Stradivarius and Leo and G&L have the last laugh after all. I hope so.

- Jos

Jos - play those guitars!!! The '59 Les Paul I played wasn't in a store, it was the personal property of a well known Canadian musician. There's no way in the world he would have let anyone play it but it was being stored, along with a whole bunch of his other gear, at a friends place (he lived upstairs from a studio/venue where this guys did some work). My friend took me into the storeroom, opened up the case, which must have weighed a ton, and let me play it. What a nice guitar, I vote '59 Les Paul as the Strad. The thing just rang and rang and rang. I can't say if it was $300,000 better than a nice example of a new Les Paul.

As for your beautiful new Broadcaster, if you get pleasure from just looking at it/having one (which I can understand) then do that. If it sounds as good as you say it does then it deserves to be played. Guitars are tools at the end of the day, and the reason they're worth so much is because of the music that comes out of them

Tuesday already. Interesting discussions yesterday. I have a confession to make. Blarg commented yesterday that he didn't think I was into Dream Theater. He is so right. I do not know who they are. I don't believe that I have heard John Pretrucci either. However, I own some artist models, not because of the artists but because of the particular instrument that I looked at and liked. The MM JP is a good example. It plays great and is beautiful in the white pearl. It was used and as new when I bought it. Price and value is number one to me. If I can't recover the value, I will probably pass it up. The exception is probably the F-100 Return. I probably will not never get my investment on that one but sometimes we have to make exceptions. I have a Clapton Custom Shop Strat and I do know who he is. He is not a fav of mine but is certainly a good artist. If I were to buy because of an artist it would be have to be a Mark Knopfler Strat but there are things that I do not like about it. I do like that boring Red though!

Yow, you ask some good questions today. I have a Les Paul and am currently in negotiations for a trade to a special build Tele. If Les goes down the road it will be my only one. I think Gibson has lost it, marketing all these artists models. So, 50s, 60s, new LPs, I am not interested. I agree that 10 year old guitars in great condition are good buys. I am not into vintage and prefer vintage reissues. I would love to have a vintage that I had made vintage. The technology in electronics today is better and quality control continues to improve with many manufactures with Gibson probably the exception in my opinion. About a year ago I talked with the Gibson rep at the local GC and showed him quality issues on some of the LPs hanging on the wall. He claimed it was because using nitro is more labor intensive. As a Gibson Rep. If I had been him I would have tried to sell me on Gibson instead of making excuses for quality issues.

As for taking your NOS and unpacking it, I would do the same. I have all the pickguard protective materials off mine and they all get played a bit. As they are art to us that is what we do. I am very careful in handling them and do not use most of them for gigging. I just plain love guitars, playing and looking at them. I'm flattered that some of you think I know about some of these artists. Truth is, if isn't 50s, 60s, or 70s, I may be oblivious. So, the bottom line is that I am vintage, probably reliced a bit and if I want to see one, I just look in the mirror. Yow, that Broadscaster is a beauty. Boy do you have fine collection, especially for a young whipper snapper. Keep it up and you will need a big pole barn with finished walls to hang them on someday. Still my story----Darwin.

Last edited by darwinohm on Tue Nov 30, 2010 4:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I see owning instruments for investment value different than owning an instrument for playing. If I were to own something as an investment I would likely not want to put any wear on it as that may decrease its value; whereas an instrument for playing is exactly that, and wear and tear comes with the territory. Mine you the same instrument can be viewed by different potential owners from the 2 different viewpoints With that said, I don't think I would ever buy an investment instrument because I only own instruments to play. Owning an instrument for its value doesn't fit into my way of thinking.

Your Broadcaster is one instrument that merits either one of those views, and you obvious decided that it is an instrument for playing. And I say, good for you with your choice.

The reason I added the Beatles option is that I foresee them extend the 3 B's to 4 B's: Bach, Beethoven, Brahms, and Beatles. And if time correct instruments are to be used, it will be Hohner, Ricks, and the Casino that people will be looking for.

- Jos

Since you are talking instruments associated with the Beatles I take it you mean Hofner rather than Hohner.

Kit

That NOS Broadcaster is simply a treasure. If you have trouble thinking of topics for later in the week, I for one would love to hear the story of how that deal with you and Gary came together.

Personally, I would have trouble strapping that thing on - it's just so special. Also, I'm such a hack and a klutz.
More importantly, it would make little sense for me to mess with that virgin beauty, given the fact I've got basically the same thing already broken in, sans black headstock paint.



I mean, what would be the point?

I'm not sure how I'd answer your other question. I don't have a firm grip on the premise, which seems to move with passage of time.

Great week shaping up here! - ed

btw: Rick - Love that Classic Sig! I know you'll do it some real justice!!!

But it looks to me that I should be looking for a 10 year instrument in its prime if I want to a good guitar.

I agree completely with this statement. I reckon it takes at least 10 years for the wood in a guitar to settle down and gain harmonic complexity.

I have a '95 Fender Strat Plus that was an insurance replacement for a stolen strat. It's a beautiful looking instrument, but from new it played like a dog. The skunk stripe kept lifting out of the neck and had to be repeatedly shaved back. The neck didn't seem stable and set ups would only work for a month or 2 before the action would go to hell. And there was no natural resonance or acoustic loudness when you played it unplugged.



So in about 2001 I put it in a case under the spare bed and started playing G&L's because they felt like MUCH better guitars compared with the Strat Plus.

About 6 months ago I pulled the Strat Plus out intending to sell it to fund another G&L. I strummed a few chords on it with the old strings and suprise, surprise - it resonated just like my G&L's. It never did that before. I checked the neck and the lacquer had crazed wildly and the action was really high. The neck had obviously kept moving. So I adjusted the action down nice and low and it has been stable ever since. With new strings on I'd have to say it plays as good or better than my other instruments. There's no buzz and it's joy to play.

I'm convinced this particular guitar was built from poorly seasoned wood or was warehoused in poor conditions before I got it, but 15 years has done wonders for it. If time can turn this ugly duckling into a swan, I can't wait for my G&L's to get a few more years on them.

And by the way, I'd definitely play the Broadcaster.

Jos,

Great, and I mean really cool, questions. First the easy one. I'd play the guitar. Having said that, I don't know for sure that I would pay for it! But, hey you fall in love with it. So I am just saying. Alot of other posters have said it, but the guitar to me, is all about the music that could, can, and will be made.

So play on. But it will be a totally bummer when (in my experience, but everyone is different) not if, it gets that first ding...


I can't participate in the poll, I just really don't know enough. I am not totally on-board with comparing an electric guitar to the great violins. The question is great. But those instruments are other worldly. Having said that....

Also, I agree with Darminolm on Gibson. They have totally lost their collective mind. I will site the holiday cover of Musicians Friend as evidence. As far as I am concerned, late model Gibsons are not for serious guitarists, at least those of us who are going to buy out of a show room.

Since you are talking instruments associated with the Beatles I take it you mean Hofner rather than Hohner.

You mean the honorable mouth harp has to look from the sidelines? Just kidding, Yes I wanted to refer to Paul's bass not their 'mouthpiece'.

- Jos

About 6 months ago I pulled the Strat Plus out intending to sell it to fund another G&L. I strummed a few chords on it with the old strings and suprise, surprise - it resonated just like my G&L's. It never did that before. I checked the neck and the lacquer had crazed wildly and the action was really high. The neck had obviously kept moving. So I adjusted the action down nice and low and it has been stable ever since. With new strings on I'd have to say it plays as good or better than my other instruments. There's no buzz and it's joy to play.

That's an amazing story! That guitar would be junked at any other time and here it is. But it also demonstrates something about how at least one of the big three produced their guitars. The proper prepping of the wood is time consuming and drying kilns may not always be the answer. It seems these problems did not occur with the aforementioned fabled instruments. Although the scientist in me raises his finger and claims that may be a self-selecting argument. You only hear and see those that have survived. Because how many of the initial number produced are still around? And how many have been added by fakes? Oops.

- Jos

Last edited by yowhatsshakin on Tue Nov 30, 2010 5:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Since you are talking instruments associated with the Beatles I take it you mean Hofner rather than Hohner.

You mean the honorable mouth harp has to look from the sidelines? Just kidding, Yes I wanted to refer to Paul's bass not their 'mouthpiece'.

- Jos

Jos, I take it back! If someone turns up with one of the Hohners that John played on some of their early recordings I bet you it will be an investment-worthy instrument.

Kit

To use or not to use? All depends on why you currently own it. If you bought it to play, play it. If the investment aspect of it crossed your mind...put it away and don't touch it. Once used it will never be unplayed again. Maybe it boils down to a monetary issue. Can you afford to leave it unplayed? NOS Broadcasters are rare and hard to come by and you pay for them when you find them. You can always buy another that's already a player. Again, the monetary thing. I currently have many redundant guitars just for this reason. In the past I've had stamp collections, coin collections, even car collections. I never did put those stamps on an envelope to mail a letter even though that's what they were made for. Same with the coins. People collect all kinds of things and if I'm not mistaken, most prefer the center piece of whatever vintage thing it is they are collecting to be as NOS as possible. If I were to ever run across enough extra change to start a Shelby Cobra collection, the pride of the fleet would be the 1966 with 3.2 original miles on it and I'm pretty sure the odometer would ever see 4.
(I'll drive the ol Mustang to work)
Guess it boils down to why you own it.

Play it, otherwise it'll remain mojo-less--unless, of course, it doesn't rock your boat as a player. I have a custom '93 Lowden D-32 that I picked up a couple of years ago. It was in PRISTINE condition when I bought it, and probably set me back more than your Broadcaster. I've played it like a madman since the day I got it--both at home and at the occasional acoustic gig. I had to have a tortoise pickguard installed on it because I was digging into the soft top (too late for a clear guard). I LOVE my Lowden, so much so that I recently bought a custom Calton case for it ($$$!). Not being a collector I don't worry about the mojo. Of course I'll never be able to sell it for what I bought it for, but I can't imagine not playing it.

BTW, I'm also a programmer, but I'm rapidly losing the last of my enthusiasm for the technology. I'm seriously contemplating how to put my geekness to rest.

--GDub

I never did put those stamps on an envelope to mail a letter even though that's what they were made for.

That is so true! I was a coin collector too and indeed you wouldn't use the coins even if you were short on change! But then again, if you spend the coin, you have less money. If you use the stamp, it is voided. If you play the guitar you can, well, ... play the guitar again! And some more, and some more, etc. I bought this Broadcaster with the intent of playing it. That it was N.O.S. was a rather unimportant detail. And yes, a could have looked for one that was played already. But I found this one first.

- Jos

So far I'm not in the minority in playing the Broadcaster but then again there might be enough people out there that call me a fool. I made the choice now and there is no turning back. I take very good care of my instruments and beyond some pick swirl most have no nicks what so ever. But when it happens I don't care too much about it either.
- Jos

The economy of your technique and I would like the have a chat with you

I've played it like a madman since the day I got it--both at home and at the occasional acoustic gig.

Guess we have to dub you the Monty Montgomery of this Board

BTW, I'm also a programmer, but I'm rapidly losing the last of my enthusiasm for the technology. I'm seriously contemplating how to put my geekness to rest.

Three things have saved me here: not working for the big shops in the Seattle area (MSFT, Adobe, Amazon, Google), working with people I have a longstanding professional relationship with (see LR of yesterday), and Agile Programming. Has made my life a lot saner especially after I left one of the aforementioned companies. It sucks major league if you do something for a living you don't want to get out of bed for anymore. So good luck, GDub!

- Jos

The economy of your technique and I would like the have a chat with you

Mmm. Maybe I can start a consulting business ...

Hey Jos,

VERY nice guitar ya got there, and personally glad you took the wrapper off. I see some folks intent on investment guitars and letting them hang on a wall but they were made to play, and those have a very special sound to them so let it out. As far as dings and wear go, don't they call that "rustic" or "road worn" now and jack up the price?

Gotta share some Seattle food news with you. I am passing through for a couple of days and had dinner at Shiro's Sushi, Belltown, tonight and have to say, if you like sushi this place is one of the best. Parking was a pain, especially with the rain but worth the effort.

Stradivarius of guitars would have to be Leo's early models since that style is for me. While there are strat and 58-60 LP fans I think between these three styles will always be the what the players in the future will base their search on. All respect to PRS, Collings etc. but these are the standards IMHO.

I am passing through for a couple of days and had dinner at Shiro's Sushi, Belltown.

Shiro is practically in the backyard of the PopCap office. And yes, parking in Belltown is a drag. Hope you have fun in the Emerald City.

- Jos

Last edited by yowhatsshakin on Tue Nov 30, 2010 10:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

MY COLLECTORS ALARM IS GOING C-C-C-CRAZY