Tuning key changes or a mistake?

I have a major issue with my new 2017 Legacy. I know how to properly wind strings, but the string posts on this guitar has a huge problem! When I start winding the string and keep pressure on it to have it wind down to the bottom of the post it starts to wind around the fatter part of the post (see pic). I don't know if they put the wrong tuning keys on it or if there has been some kind of product change... but it sucks!

Look at the bottom of the string post and you will see there is a shoulder... I feel like that should be below the headstock.

A easy 15-20 min string change now takes me about a hour...

I can't see the image that you posted, but if you put on locking tuners, there's no winding and a string change takes half the time that it would normally.

Hi Toddcleo, tuning posts of the newer G&L's are tapered, wider at top and more narrow at the bottom. If you are used to putting strings on other brand guitars, G&L tuners require a little adjustment in technique when putting new strings on. Make sure you pre-cut the string no longer than 1.5 to 2 inches beyond the tuning post of the string you are applying, after inserting it through the bridge/tailpiece and pulling it tight in the region of the tuners. This should allow 2-3 wraps on the post as you tighten the key with the string winder. I used to keep downward pressure on the string beyond the nut while tightening to optimize how it wraps on gibsons and fenders. On G&L's I maintain direct pull on the string, perpendicular to the tuning post as I tighten the key. Time for stringing up a set should be < 10 min as long as you have the right tools at hand.
Common pitfalls: cutting the string too long, resulting in too many wraps, and this will be a problem with the tapered tuning posts. Will also create tuning problems. good luck. they are nice tuners if you do it right.

I know how to string a guitar, I've been doing it for 50 years. I have 4 other G&L's (two other 2017's) and none of them have posts that are made/look like these.

Can you guys see the pic? See to fat straight part at the bottom of the tapered post? That should NOT be there!

I know how to string a guitar, I've been doing it for 50 years. I have 4 other G&L's (two other 2017's) and none of them have posts that are made/look like these.

Can you guys see the pic? See to fat straight part at the bottom of the tapered post? That should NOT be there!

No picture shows just a circle with a minus sign inside. I suspect you have not set the permissions for sharing to all.

Did you buy this guitar new or used? Is it a USA model or a Tribute Series model?

Looking forward to seeing your photo. Also, this being your first post please do add one to the Introductions sub-forum, see: Welcome! Read This First.

I know how to string a guitar, I've been doing it for 50 years. I have 4 other G&L's (two other 2017's) and none of them have posts that are made/look like these.

Can you guys see the pic? See to fat straight part at the bottom of the tapered post? That should NOT be there!

No picture shows just a circle with a minus sign inside. I suspect you have not set the permissions for sharing to all.

Did you buy this guitar new or used? Is it a USA model or a Tribute Series model?

Looking forward to seeing your photo. Also, this being your first post please do add one to the Introductions sub-forum, see: Welcome! Read This First.

Brand new USA Legacy, had it custom built and waited 10 weeks for it just this last December.

Not real sure what's going on with the picture as I've used these phpBB forums many times in the past. In fact I made one years ago for my High School.

Permissions here? Or my google photo page where it's located?

Let's try this... just the url to the pic, and yes it is set for sharing there.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/oEt1XSyDstr82nVK2

Every time I use the "Img" code is get this error... "It was not possible to determine the dimensions of the image"

Anyway, this is a large sharable picture link of the tuners..

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1RnpM8WWVOrKcwQejwfhHu4r4jIfZgcGi/view?usp=sharing

One last time...

OK, I can see it in the preview... hope others can.

That does seem kinda strange. My (early) 2017 Bluesboy has the usual tapered all the way to the base tuners.
I would think the ones on your guitar will probably work fine once you adapt to them but I would contact GL directly about the issue.
I'll say this about my Bluesboy- it holds tune just fine but the tuners do seem not as well built as those on my older G&Ls.

Thanks, yes it is strange and I have contacted my salesman at Music Store Live and asked him to forward the pic and email I sent him to the proper G&L rep. I don't want to adapt to it... like I said, a easy 15 min string change can take an hour sometimes. I have 5 G&L's and none of them look like this, and two others (ASAT's) are also 2017's. This guitar also came with a bad nut... it was pitted, had fractures running through it and kept grabbing the strings. I replaced the nut myself and it tunes real nice now.

Yeah... of all the G&L's I've bought this is the only one I've had a problem with. For all the work I've done on this thing they should send me a set of locking tuners for compensation! lololol

I'm not an expert, but it looks like the set of tuners is for a thicker headstock. Another thought... is the length of the tuning pegs adjustable?

I'm not an expert, but it looks like the set of tuners is for a thicker headstock. Another thought... is the length of the tuning pegs adjustable?

Exactly! That's what I thought, they look like they are made for a thicker headstock. I did measure the headstock thickness against my new ASAT and it's 1mm thiner, but that part sticking up is a lot more than that.
As for being adjustable... idunno how that would work? Like maybe it's a sliding sleeve or something?

I'm not an expert, but it looks like the set of tuners is for a thicker headstock. Another thought... is the length of the tuning pegs adjustable?

Exactly! That's what I thought, they look like they are made for a thicker headstock. I did measure the headstock thickness against my new ASAT and it's 1mm thiner, but that part sticking up is a lot more than that.
As for being adjustable... idunno how that would work? Like maybe it's a sliding sleeve or something?

Here are photos from the G&L On-Line Store of the tuner:




Please let us know what the problem was and how they (Dealer and G&L) resolve it.

Thank you, I think you are on to something. I'm going to remove the low E tuner right now and see if it's adjustable!

And yes... I'm sure I will hear from my salesman on Monday and let you guys know what he says.

Craig may want to look into this.

On the bass side of life, Schaller got very unreliable. Couldn't supply what G&L needed, quality issues, etc; basically the company was/is in tumult. Hipshot declined the OEM work (which I wasn't particularly impressed with when they were supplying bass tuners a few years ago). Consequently, G&L moved to Taiwanese Ping Well for bass tuners. Being wary of new things, we're cautiously optimistic that they'll work out just fine. Time will tell, but so far no complaints and only the observation that they look a weensie bit different.

--So--

You 6 stringers may have the same thing going on here.

Ken...

No dice... it appears that the posts are just too long. If you look at the pic you can see when I adjust the threaded nut up to where the non tapered part doesn't stick up, the key hangs way off the bottom of the headstock.






Here is a pic of my new USA 2017 ASAT's tuners I bought just a couple months before my Legacy. You can see that the low E sticks up a tiny bit, but not enough to cause any problems. BTW... the ASAT is still strung from the factory! *LOL*

Last edited by toddcleo on Sun Apr 22, 2018 5:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Craig may want to look into this.

On the bass side of life, Schaller got very unreliable. Couldn't supply what G&L needed, quality issues, etc; basically the company was/is in tumult. Hipshot declined the OEM work (which I wasn't particularly impressed with when they were supplying bass tuners a few years ago). Consequently, G&L moved to Taiwanese Ping Well for bass tuners. Being wary of new things, we're cautiously optimistic that they'll work out just fine. Time will tell, but so far no complaints and only the observation that they look a weensie bit different.

--So--

You 6 stringers may have the same thing going on here.

Ken...

Interesting... does Craig have an official capacity at G&L? I do see all his posts and he seems like the Big Kahuna here...

Surprising it passed inspections- both factory and retail.

Craig may want to look into this.

On the bass side of life, Schaller got very unreliable. Couldn't supply what G&L needed, quality issues, etc; basically the company was/is in tumult. Hipshot declined the OEM work (which I wasn't particularly impressed with when they were supplying bass tuners a few years ago). Consequently, G&L moved to Taiwanese Ping Well for bass tuners. Being wary of new things, we're cautiously optimistic that they'll work out just fine. Time will tell, but so far no complaints and only the observation that they look a weensie bit different.

--So--

You 6 stringers may have the same thing going on here.

Ken...

Interesting... does Craig have an official capacity at G&L? I do see all his posts and he seems like the Big Kahuna here...

I am not an employee of G&L but I have been running this website for them, going on 18 years. I have a number of contacts at G&L and I
do contact them when appropriate. In your case, you have already contacted the dealer (as required) and they will be contacting G&L to get this
resolved for you.

Craig may want to look into this.

On the bass side of life, Schaller got very unreliable. Couldn't supply what G&L needed, quality issues, etc; basically the company was/is in tumult. Hipshot declined the OEM work (which I wasn't particularly impressed with when they were supplying bass tuners a few years ago). Consequently, G&L moved to Taiwanese Ping Well for bass tuners. Being wary of new things, we're cautiously optimistic that they'll work out just fine. Time will tell, but so far no complaints and only the observation that they look a weensie bit different.

--So--

You 6 stringers may have the same thing going on here.

Ken...

Interesting... does Craig have an official capacity at G&L? I do see all his posts and he seems like the Big Kahuna here...

I am not an employee of G&L but I have been running this website for them, going on 18 years. I have a number of contacts at G&L and I
do contact them when appropriate. In your case, you have already contacted the dealer (as required) and they will be contacting G&L to get this
resolved for you.

Thanks Craig, I kinda figured that.

A far as inspection goes, I truly believe this one slipped through the cracks. I noticed that this is the first G&L I've got that no longer has a signature by a set-up tech. Is every guitar still inspected and put on the set-up bench? My ASAT was actually featured on G&L's FB page with three pics on the bench. It's a cool guitar... had it custom built with a Bigsby. Also, I don't think Music Store Live did a proper inspection. If they had they surly would have noticed the bad binding nut. It was so bad I couldn't even tune it without the tuning keys getting real tight when it was just about in tune, and then when I backed it off it would "Snap!"... and go way flat. BTW, when I went to take the low E tuner off, the retainer nut wasn't even tight and actually loose to the point of being wobbly!

I'm so disappointed with this guitar that I'm just about ready to sell it and get me a Fender Jaguar... something I've always wanted. I do have another Legacy, a '94 but it really needs a new neck. I almost had a new neck built just before I ordered this guitar.

Do these tuners have the G&L stamp on them?

Do these tuners have the G&L stamp on them?

Yes, and on the low E tuner the G&L logo is way crooked! *LOL* The button must have not been properly pressed into place.

What do you guys think of this? This is the factory nut that came on this Legacy from G&L that I removed and replaced with a unbleached bone nut from StewMac. Have you ever seen anything so pitted and disgusting looking?

Well- for the sake of accuracy I need to retract my earlier statement.
Took a little closer look at my Bluesboy this evening and the tuners do indeed have the step portion sitting above the base a bit. Perhaps not as pronounced as on your Legacy but similar.
Have to say I never had an issue restringing but I think I tend to keep the string half way up the post until I get to pitch at which point I press the string down the taper to seat it.
I will be curious what G&L says but in may actually be the new "normal".

Well- for the sake of accuracy I need to retract my earlier statement.
Took a little closer look at my Bluesboy this evening and the tuners do indeed have the step portion sitting above the base a bit. Perhaps not as pronounced as on your Legacy but similar.
Have to say I never had an issue restringing but I think I tend to keep the string half way up the post until I get to pitch at which point I press the string down the taper to seat it.
I will be curious what G&L says but in may actually be the new "normal".

Yeah, if it is the new normal, I don't want any part of it. I poke the string down in the slot, then press it down against the headstock just behind the post and start winding. This is my tried and true method I've done for years and it's always worked great. I can easily do a string change in 15 min... but not now because I have to watch it very carefully. It's mainly a problem on the 5th and 6th string because of them being thicker, they can easily jump on to the thick non beveled section.

BTW... I want to thank everyone who responded. You guys have been a great help! I also wanted to post this here so that others who have this problem or may later have this problem know about it.

Just got a email from my salesman. I guess I'll never know what's going on with these tuners, but this will fix the problem nicely!

Hi Todd,

It is nice to hear from you again! I told my rep to send you a set of locking tuners to help you out with this issue. It is just faster than going back and forth with them about replacing one or two. Hopefully that helps!

All the best,

Ben Anderson | Music Store Live

Good for you, but bummer for us... I would have liked to know what the answer is...

Good for you, but bummer for us... I would have liked to know what the answer is...

I agree, I would like to know what the deal is? Maybe they figure it's easier than admitting there actually is a problem. I don't want to force the issue as MSL has always been real good to me.

On the plus side... free set of locking tuners for anyone that complains about this issue! (maybe) *LOL*

Hey there,

I compiled a bunch of data on my own website related to tuners used by G&L. Click on the albums for Schaller non-locking tuners and you'll find dimensions for some typical tuning machines at the bottom of the text blurb on each page. The error in the quoted values is estimated to be +/-0.003" in each of the values but you get a good idea.

Hope this helps,

- Jos

Hey there,

I compiled a bunch of data on my own website related to tuners used by G&L. Click on the albums for Schaller non-locking tuners and you'll find dimensions for some typical tuning machines at the bottom of the text blurb on each page. The error in the quoted values is estimated to be +/-0.003" in each of the values but you get a good idea.

Hope this helps,

- Jos

Jos,
Check these posts for additional tuners used by G&L including the current ones: What tuners are used on G&L guitars (USA models)? and Locking tuners question.
When I return will find out the current source for the guitar tuners which I don't think are Ping Well tuners which are used for the basses as
mentioned by Ken Baker.

Hope this helps.

I wonder what the chances are that Schaller accidentally slapped some G&L logo buttons on some tuners that were mean't for another guitar mfg. Fender's tuners look identical, and I'm sure lots of guitar makers use their tuners. If they make tuners with different dimensions for other manufactures that could have easily happened. Right?

I wonder what the chances are that Schaller accidentally slapped some G&L logo buttons on some tuners that were mean't for another guitar mfg. Fender's tuners look identical, and I'm sure lots of guitar makers use their tuners. If they make tuners with different dimensions for other manufactures that could have easily happened. Right?

This was certainly an interesting problem. But locking tuners are a big win anywaty, IMO. I've got them on both my G&L guitars. I've got the set I pulled off the most recent one (2016, I think), and they are definitely tapered, but don't have a step in the shaft.

--Al Evans

I wonder what the chances are that Schaller accidentally slapped some G&L logo buttons on some tuners that were mean't for another guitar mfg. Fender's tuners look identical, and I'm sure lots of guitar makers use their tuners. If they make tuners with different dimensions for other manufactures that could have easily happened. Right?

This was certainly an interesting problem. But locking tuners are a big win anywaty, IMO. I've got them on both my G&L guitars. I've got the set I pulled off the most recent one (2016, I think), and they are definitely tapered, but don't have a step in the shaft.

--Al Evans

For sure! I've never had locking tuners and it was silly of me not to order them on this guitar since I had it built. From what I've read they are the preferred type for any guitar using a whammy bar. I can't wait for them to get here and try them out.

I prefer them for ease of stringing, and in theory they would stay in tune better; that said I never had tuning difficulties with non-locking tuners on well set up instruments.

I found out something interesting today. I measured the headstock thickness of my '94 legacy and it is just about 14.5mm, my new ASAT bought just a few months before my Legacy is 13.5mm, and this Legacy is at 12.5mm. Do you see a trend here? The area sticking out on the posts is 2mm.
Is G&L gradually making the headstock thinner to reduce materials costs? I know it's a popular trend these days with many manufactures, but at some point it begins to deteriorate the integrity of their product.

Just a little food for thought...

I found out something interesting today. I measured the headstock thickness of my '94 legacy and it is just about 14.5mm, my new ASAT bought just a few months before my Legacy is 13.5mm, and this Legacy is at 12.5mm. Do you see a trend here? The area sticking out on the posts is 2mm.
Is G&L gradually making the headstock thinner to reduce materials costs? I know it's a popular trend these days with many manufactures, but at some point it begins to deteriorate the integrity of their product.

Just a little food for thought...

I don't think so.

In order to get sufficient string tension on the nut (and you see this on a lot of acoustics, and some electrics like a Les Paul etc.) luthiers would angle the head down and back from the fretboard. That meant that even though the neck itself could be carved out of a 2" x 3" stick of maple, the head needed to be larger - like 4" (or 5" ) x 3". Of course one could just use a 2" x 3" piece for the neck, and glue an angled headstock to it - and a lot of cheap guitars do that - but the one piece is stronger, and less inclined to break - but that meant more waste material for finer guitars, because they'd be carving the neck out of a piece of 4" (or 5") x 3" maple or whatever, and throwing away a piece as long as the fretboard, just to get a one piece neck/head. I think it was Leo Fender who came up with the innovation of simply carving the head (flat) out of the end piece, and using string trees to make up the lost tension on the posts furthest away from the neck. That way you only had the material atop the headstock cut away (and tossed).

That being my understanding, it means that thinning out the neck would only produce more waste, and not less.

I would find it easier to believe that someone new was manning the bandsaw and cut the waste away on the wrong side of the line, or alternately, if G&L is using CNC routers to carve their necks - that the CNC machine which cut the neck was out of tune (not leveled/zeroed in properly, the software cuts depth and width etc. from a "known" start position, if the start position is out by a millimeter, the whole cut is out by a millimeter. etc.)

In any case, if the measurement you gave is what it is supposed to be, then those tuners aren't fit for the head, and if the measurement isn't what it ought to be, that would be a factory defect.

I'd be curious to know what that measurement is supposed to be. It may help to get a photo of the thickness of the head alongside a precision ruler - to pass along to someone at G&L along with the question - is this why my heads are too long?

I found out something interesting today. I measured the headstock thickness of my '94 legacy and it is just about 14.5mm, my new ASAT bought just a few months before my Legacy is 13.5mm, and this Legacy is at 12.5mm. Do you see a trend here? The area sticking out on the posts is 2mm.
Is G&L gradually making the headstock thinner to reduce materials costs? I know it's a popular trend these days with many manufactures, but at some point it begins to deteriorate the integrity of their product.

Just a little food for thought...

That is interesting. I quickly measured the thickness of the headstock of my 2017 guitars, a Doheny and ASAT Bluesboy S/H with Okoumé body and Cedar top, and their headstocks are 13.84mm (0.545") thick. The latter has tapered posts and the straight part is not sticking out much above the washer.

Otherwise, I agree with Dan. G&L is not doing the same thing as e.g. Taylor where the headstock is a separate piece glued to the remainder of the neck. So it is all coming out of the same log and more material would be wasted if the headstock is thinner.

- Jos

Thanks, Dan and yowhatsshakin for the feedback. Yes, I guess that makes sense that removing more material would only create more waste.

So here are some pics with measurements....

My Legacy the guitar with the issue. 12.89mm measured between the 6th and 5th key.






And now my ASAT bought just a few months earlier measured in the same place. 14.12mm.



Just looking at the two pics you can see the difference how far the posts protrude.

So now I guess I have a dilemma... the locking tuners G&L is sending will help with the ease of installing strings. But now I worry that the thinner headstock coupled along with the posts sticking out farther might be causing the head to flex a bit. I do sometimes get a "POP" when releasing string tension as I tune the low E.

I will probably contact my dealer and have him talk to G&L and see what they think.

Once again... thanks so much guys for all the feedback!

Hey there,

I compiled a bunch of data on my own website related to tuners used by G&L. Click on the albums for Schaller non-locking tuners and you'll find dimensions for some typical tuning machines at the bottom of the text blurb on each page. The error in the quoted values is estimated to be +/-0.003" in each of the values but you get a good idea.

Hope this helps,

- Jos

Jos,
Check these posts for additional tuners used by G&L including the current ones: What tuners are used on G&L guitars (USA models)? and Locking tuners question.
When I return will find out the current source for the guitar tuners which I don't think are Ping Well tuners which are used for the basses as
mentioned by Ken Baker.

Hope this helps.

Craig, did you ever find an answer to this question (about the current source of tuners, and if they are now Ping)? This thread was from last year, but I don't see an answer posted.

Hey there,

I compiled a bunch of data on my own website related to tuners used by G&L. Click on the albums for Schaller non-locking tuners and you'll find dimensions for some typical tuning machines at the bottom of the text blurb on each page. The error in the quoted values is estimated to be +/-0.003" in each of the values but you get a good idea.

Hope this helps,

- Jos

Jos,
Check these posts for additional tuners used by G&L including the current ones: What tuners are used on G&L guitars (USA models)? and Locking tuners question.
When I return will find out the current source for the guitar tuners which I don't think are Ping Well tuners which are used for the basses as
mentioned by Ken Baker.

Hope this helps.

Craig, did you ever find an answer to this question (about the current source of tuners, and if they are now Ping)? This thread was from last year, but I don't see an answer posted.

No, I will try again to get the current source.

Stay tuned.

Hey there,

I compiled a bunch of data on my own website related to tuners used by G&L. Click on the albums for Schaller non-locking tuners and you'll find dimensions for some typical tuning machines at the bottom of the text blurb on each page. The error in the quoted values is estimated to be +/-0.003" in each of the values but you get a good idea.

Hope this helps,

- Jos

Jos,
Check these posts for additional tuners used by G&L including the current ones: What tuners are used on G&L guitars (USA models)? and Locking tuners question.
When I return will find out the current source for the guitar tuners which I don't think are Ping Well tuners which are used for the basses as
mentioned by Ken Baker.

Hope this helps.

Craig, did you ever find an answer to this question (about the current source of tuners, and if they are now Ping)? This thread was from last year, but I don't see an answer posted.

No, I will try again to get the current source.

Stay tuned.

Hi Craig. In another thread, I saw that you confirmed that current G&L tuners were not made by Schaller, but you hadn't responded here. Did you find out who does currently make them?
Thanks
David

Hey there,

I compiled a bunch of data on my own website related to tuners used by G&L. Click on the albums for Schaller non-locking tuners and you'll find dimensions for some typical tuning machines at the bottom of the text blurb on each page. The error in the quoted values is estimated to be +/-0.003" in each of the values but you get a good idea.

Hope this helps,

- Jos

Jos,
Check these posts for additional tuners used by G&L including the current ones: What tuners are used on G&L guitars (USA models)? and Locking tuners question.
When I return will find out the current source for the guitar tuners which I don't think are Ping Well tuners which are used for the basses as
mentioned by Ken Baker.

Hope this helps.

Craig, did you ever find an answer to this question (about the current source of tuners, and if they are now Ping)? This thread was from last year, but I don't see an answer posted.

No, I will try again to get the current source.

Stay tuned.

Hi Craig. In another thread, I saw that you confirmed that current G&L tuners were not made by Schaller, but you hadn't responded here. Did you find out who does currently make them?
Thanks
Dvid

Sorry, but after many unanswered emails, I gave up and had forgotten to post this.

While searching for past posts about changes in suppliers, I did find this post from 2012:
viewtopic.php?p=42376#p42376

So, perhaps this unamed "well known (in the world of guitar manufacturing) factory in Taiwan" is the current source for tuners, too.
I just cannot get any answer from any of my sources at G&L.