Using a Z-Coil Bridge Pickup in Middle or Neck Position

[Artem17]

I buyed an Will Ray Z Coil Pickup so i was left with and extra Z-Coil Pickup to spare.

I´m thinking in buying another Will Ray pickup and a Neck or Middle and use the Bridge as a Middle or neck in another guitar i have.

What should i buy? i have seen in the store that they sell the neck and bridge as the same, and the middle as a separate pickup.

Should i Buy a neck pickup and use the bridge pickup as a middle

or should i buy a middle and use the bridge as a neck?

[Elwood]

...

or should i buy a middle and use the bridge as a neck?

That's what I would do .

[Artem17]

...

or should i buy a middle and use the bridge as a neck?

That's what I would do .

That may seems obvious..But the bridge pickup is supposedly the hotter of the 3, then the middle and the neck are almost the same pickup.

That is were i get confuse.

Why G&L sells the bridge and the neck as the same, when is should be the neck and the middle.

[Elwood]

Polarity is most likely the reason, so you get humcancelling with the middle and neck/bridge.
I agree with you, the store doesn't make it clear if there is a difference in windings .
My Z3 set does have a hotter bridge pickup...but not by much.
They read :
Neck- 5.07 Middle- 5.11 Bridge- 5.16

Craig, our Admin will be back in after the holidays, he can often find out details from the source.

cheers,
elwood

[Artem17]

Polarity is most likely the reason, so you get humcancelling with the middle and neck/bridge.
I agree with you, the store doesn't make it clear if there is a difference in windings .
My Z3 set does have a hotter bridge pickup...but not by much.
They read :
Neck- 5.07 Middle- 5.11 Bridge- 5.16

Craig, our Admin will be back in after the holidays, he can often find out details from the source.

cheers,
elwood

Thanks! i dunno know if polarity matters with this Z-COILS since they are already hum cancelling...so if a put the bridge in the neck it would have more resistance in the neck than in the middle and that´s wrong.

Maybe someone from G&L Could help us clear this.

Greetings and happy holidays,

[Elwood]

I just checked my set,
The middle pickup is :
Bass coils -North up
Treble coils- South up

...and the neck and bridge opposite that.

That might be so they can be used with parallel wiring schemes as well .

[Artem17]

thanks a lot man! especially taking the time to do it during christmas eve.

Well now i have to figured out the resistance on on the bridge and neck pickup so i don´t end with a hotter pickup in the neck

[patricks]

A hotter neck pickup isn't necessarily a problem, adjusting the pickup height to balance the output should fix the issue pretty easily.
I'm a fan of hot neck pickups anyway, you might like the sound

[GeorgeB]

Neck- 5.07 Middle- 5.11 Bridge- 5.16

I would think that this isn't neccessarily intentional as it's just within normal tolerances resulting from tiny wire diameter and conductance differences and, more importantly, tension used during winding (more tension will result in shorter total wire length (with same # of turns) and proportionally less DC resistance). Further, exact geometry of layering within the winding is another factor for total wire length. All this with equal # of turns assumed, and if that isn't an exact given then differences will be even higher. These four sources of tolerances may add or may partly cancel out, so it's pretty much arbitrary.

Something like +-2.5% (5% span) is absolutely normal (pretty tight, actually) and here it's only a 1.8% span. I would consider these three PUPs being identical.

I just checked my set,
The middle pickup is :
Bass coils -North up
Treble coils- South up

...and the neck and bridge opposite that.

Interesting, with Z-coils being humbuckers by themselves, a RW/RP middle pup isn't required. Well, if the humcancelling within the pup isn't 100% and the mismatch is consistant from pup to pup, using a RW/RP yields more hum-cancelling in 2 and 4 positions... maybe that was the rationale behind it...I see this phenomen in guitars with two humbuckers, too.

[NickHorne]

You'll be fine using a regular "bridge" z-coil in neck position. The winding variations mentioned are just normal production tolerances, and nothing deliberately different.
I've spent a lot of time getting to know z-coils, z-3s and Will Rays, and I think they're fantastic pickups. For me, the set that you mention, with the Will Ray variant at the bridge, is a real favourite setup, probably my all-time favourite, particularly for hybrid / fingerpicked styles; the touch response and string-to string balance that you can get are just spot-on. It's not exactly like like some other historic instrument, but so what? It's a great, musical, hum-free setup and I hope G&ls make it forever.
Now if, say, Bill Frisell, Richard Thompson and John Mayer (all perfectly plausible users) all got some in public, I bet they could never make nearly enough...

[Elwood]

Thanks for chiming in Patricks,George and Nick !
I always look forward to your posts

I thought those DC-R number seemed mighty close.

What does a typical WR bridge measure at ? I'd guess 6.??

elwood

[Craig]

Thanks for chiming in Patricks,George and Nick !
I always look forward to your posts

I thought those DC-R number seemed mighty close.

What does a typical WR bridge measure at ? I'd guess 6.??

elwood

Check in the Knowledgebase, you will find that it's 7.5 -7.7. Look in the List of G&L guitar pickups.

(currently in sunny Chicago )

[helle-man]

What does a typical WR bridge measure at ? I'd guess 6.??
elwood

They're supposed to be 8.14K with the extra windings.

Someone mentioned using a WR in the neck. I wouldn't. It will be more "wooly" sounding, lacking crispness and clarity of a normal 5K.

My 2¢
WR

[Elwood]

Thanks Will !
I'm guessing then the stock Z-coils available at the store have the same values for the bridge and neck (5.ish)

happy merry : )
elwood

[Artem17]

What does a typical WR bridge measure at ? I'd guess 6.??
elwood

They're supposed to be 8.14K with the extra windings.

Someone mentioned using a WR in the neck. I wouldn't. It will be more "wooly" sounding, lacking crispness and clarity of a normal 5K.

My 2¢
WR

So using the regular bridge pickup in then neck is fine? eve if the resistance is slighty higher than the middle pickup?

[NickHorne]

Yes. Any difference in windings is purely down to production tolerances, it's not deliberate.
Differences that small won't be audible, don't worry! There's lots of money made raising our anxiety about stuff like this, quite unnecessarily.

[JagInTheBag]

What does a typical WR bridge measure at ? I'd guess 6.??
elwood

They're supposed to be 8.14K with the extra windings.

Someone mentioned using a WR in the neck. I wouldn't. It will be more "wooly" sounding, lacking crispness and clarity of a normal 5K.

My 2¢
WR

I have a SC-2 with an overwound ASAT Super pup in the neck position and I concur.

[Elwood]

What does a typical WR bridge measure at ? I'd guess 6.??
elwood

They're supposed to be 8.14K with the extra windings.

Someone mentioned using a WR in the neck. I wouldn't. It will be more "wooly" sounding, lacking crispness and clarity of a normal 5K.

My 2¢
WR

I have a SC-2 with an overwound ASAT Super pup in the neck position and I concur.

I think Will misundersood, it's a stock bridge Z-pup that was being considered in the neck pos.

[patricks]

That may have been my post that caused the confusion - I said that I like hot neck pickups, but Wil's right, of course, in that they're usually voiced differently to bridge pickups. Playing style matters, too, I use my fingers so the fingernails can make things a bit ice-pick-y if I'm not careful. If you feel like some DIY (who doesn't love DIY?) then a "wooly" bridge pickup could probably be made a bit more neck-friendly by experimenting with capacitors to shift the resonant frequency up a bit higher

[Craig]

...

or should i buy a middle and use the bridge as a neck?

That's what I would do .

That may seems obvious..But the bridge pickup is supposedly the hotter of the 3, then the middle and the neck are almost the same pickup.

That is were i get confuse.

Why G&L sells the bridge and the neck as the same, when is should be the neck and the middle.

Let's start with the stock set of Z-coils for the Comanche (and ASAT Z-3):

Here's the wiring diagram:



The Middle pickup is RW/RP to the Neck and Bridge pickups (just like the MFD single coils used in the S-500).
That is the reason the G&L On-Line lists the Neck/Bridge and Middle pickups separately.

I have a set of pickups for a Comanche and this photo shows the wiring of each pickup:



My pickup's DC-R readings are the following: Neck is 4.92K, Middle is 5.04K and Bridge is 5.02K. I got these pickups from G&L a few years ago,
so your readings might vary + or - those readings.

With the stock set of Z-coils you can swap the Neck with the Bridge and visa versa and not affect the 2/4 pickup settings.

Now if you want to use the Will Ray Bridge Z-coil, as Will recommends, don't use it in the Neck position. I would leave it in the Bridge position.

Hope this helps.