Need a second string tree?

Hey everyone, my Legacy has a ringing behind the nut on the 4th string. I've brought to a tech to have a look at and he says there's not enough break angle on the string and it needs another string tree. He says the nut is fine and also tried wrapping the string to the bottom of the tuning post but the ring is still present. I'd rather avoid drilling into the headstock and changing things from the stock look but not sure what other options I've got. Guitar was bought new last year online and I just put up with this annoyance but now I'm recording my own stuff and I find it detracts from the sound quality.

Just like to get some thoughts on this before I decide on adding the second tree. The tech also recommended going with rollers as it help avoid the strings from catching when using the trem. In my opinion they look kind of out of place though.

I have to think about this a bit but whatever you do, don t let this tech add another string tree. I think that your guitar tech is marginal. I'm not convinced the ringing is above the nut. Do you have it when fretting? Lets isolate the problem and then we can fix. I suspect other issues like a saddle not adjusted correctly. If you have it while fretting, that is a big clue.-- Darwin .

Hi Darwin, thanks for replying. I believe the issue is behind the nut as the ringing can be cancelled out by placing a finger lightly on the string between the tuner and nut. Only happens on open notes so not when fretted. It's not so noticeable when playing chords but it sounds really bad when doing palm mutes because the string is still ringing behind the nut. I will probably bring it to another tech to get another opinion.

Where in Canada are you? I can recommend a great luthier if you're in the Vancouver area.

I've got this on one of my ASATs with locking sperzels. It rings on the high e between the nut and the tuner.
I had a different neck on the same guitar that had the redundant tree added for the 'e' and 'b'...no ringing.

BUT...I bet there is a solution that doesn't require drilling ...like sliding some tiny shrink tubing over the length of string that resonates?
with the right color (or clear) it would look fine and could be used over and over.

elwood

I'm in Ontario but I appreciate your willingness to help. I may try to source a local luthier.

If I place a piece of felt underneath the strings behind the nut, the ringing goes away. It's a bandaid solution; it works but I'm trying to fix the root cause.

Was the nut ever slotted for a different string gauge? For example, could a previous owner have set it up for a wound G (assuming that's what you meant by "fourth string")? If so, that may have something to do with it. I'm thinking the rattling could be in the nut slot. Dampening the string behind the nut also dampens it through the slot. I've seen that happen on a bass before.

My upright bass had problems at the other end. When I installed a piezo pickup on the bridge, it would also amplify the six inches or so of string between the bridge and the tailpiece (which always vibrates on an upright). I wove some surgical tubing across the strings. That worked like a charm, but again there is no "permanent fix" for that problem on uprights...

Ken

Boom, I would loosen that string, put a thin piece of paper in the string groove in the nut, and retune the string. That will tell you as I think that the nut is the problem. -- Darwin

I was reading this book: The Fender Stratocaster Handbook last night and came across something that sounded similar.

The book said if you don't have enough winds on a tuning head then the string angle remains too shallow and it can seem/sound like the guitar needs a second string t.

Could that be part of the problem?

I agree with Ken and Darwin completely. When I first read your post a few days ago I suspected to deep a groove for that string on the nut.

Larry

Thanks for all the suggestions everyone. I also read about putting a small piece of paper in the nut slut and tried that last night. The ringing did go away. What I wasn't sure about is if the paper was acting like a sort of dampening material or if it did in fact mean a problem with the nut slot. So I guess it means I need the slot refilled and then filed down again? I have read about people using super glue and baking soda. Any drawbacks to this? Or since it's only one slot, could I just continue to shim it with a piece of paper?

I think it would be fine to use the paper shim, as long as it looks OK to you and the string doesn't sound bad open.

Ken

I actually keep a very small container with the dust from nuts I've filed or sanded. I mix it with a little glue and apply it in the slot very carefully with a needle. Let it dry completely and refile. I've only done this once when the customer didn't want another nut but it worked perfectly and is still working today.

If you're going to do this, measure and note the slot distance now so you don't accidentally replicate the situation.

Larry

I did a few A/B comparisons and decided that the paper shim in the slot dampened the string too much. So I wonder if it also dampened it enough to cancel out the ringing. Anyways, out it went and I'm back to the piece of felt behind the nut for now. I'll bring it to another tech and if the nut needs any work I'll leave it to the pros. Now the nut on this Legacy is bone so I'm assuming that filling in the slot would be best done with the same material if that's possible?

The first thing I do on any Fender-style headstock construction is to add a second string tree for D and G string, and use Graphtecs or ones with rollers... without is it's always a compromise because the design is flawed from the start. The only headstock design that really works in engineering terms is from Paul Reed Smith. Period. And strictly IMHO, of course.

Do not use paper to shim a slot, aluminum foil is much better. This is also a temporary fix in case anyone had filed a slot too deep and/or wide.

I actually keep a very small container with the dust from nuts I've filed or sanded. I mix it with a little glue and apply it in the slot very carefully with a needle. Let it dry completely and refile.

Excellent!

I have used aluminum foil also and it turned out more than temporary! -- Darwin

Got it back from the second tech and he also couldn't remedy the issue. To make matters worse, he tried to fix it by fooling around with the setup and now the trem sits too close to the body. So I think now, I may go ahead and add the second string tree. I've thought about getting the nut replaced but I'm not even sure this is the issue. Adding an aluminum foil shim in the slot didn't make a difference.

The second string will most likely solve it but I still maintain it is a nut issue as it only happens on an unfretted note. The American G&L tuners are some of the best for getting the string low on the post if you have proper winding on the post.. -- Darwin

Boom,

Cutting that beautiful guitar and adding a second string tree, which by the way is the ugliest thing on a guitar, will do two things.

Number 1. You won't hear the ring anymore. Number 2. The real problem will still be alive and kicking.

If I remember correctly this issue started after you played the guitar for some time with no issue. Is this correct?

If that statement is true, then by simple logic the problem is in something that can change or wear fairly quickly. That change is the nut, especially on wound strings like the D, and even more if used with a whammy. Nuts can be shimmed, or nuts can be repaired to an extent, but basically nuts just wear out and must be replaced. Go to Graph Tech on line. They make nuts impregnated with graphite or whatever for trems that work wonderfully.

Yeah, I've already tried winding it down all the way to the bottom of the tuning post but the ringing still persists. I'll consider getting the nut replaced as I agree, I don't like the look of adding another tree. The problem is trying to source someone competent enough to do it. I don't believe Graph Tech sells pre cut nuts that fit the legacy though.

And the problem had been there since new but it never really bothered me that much until now since I started to do recordings.

Honestly, what's the big deal about adding a second string tree? If it solves the problem quickly and easily, just do it. I have a lot of guitars with second trees. Every moment spent pondering it is a moment lost playing it.

Will

[snip]
Yeah, I've already tried winding it down all the way to the bottom of the tuning post but the ringing still persists. I'll consider getting the nut replaced as I agree
[snip]

Sounds like the best plan. If work on the nut could fix it the character and the orignal details of the instrument will be left unchanged. When I added string trees to both my ASAT and my Strat I noticed a slight sound change, the open G string felt and sounded more focussed/soild and less twangy which may or may not be to one's likings. The Strat has a blocked trem but it is quite possible than even the best string tree together with the stronger break angle would add friction.