It may have been because I had a space between Boogie and Bill but the post was not as easy to locate as I expected so here it is:
Source:
http://guitarsbyleo.com/FORUM/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=1329[originally posted by
BoogieBill on March 30, 2009]
The IntroThe topic of how to get a good sound out of MFDs and Z-Coils on Comanches, Z-3s and S-500s comes up pretty often. When this came up a few months ago, I decided to save my post, as several commented on how helpful it was. (Thanks again!)
So here's my take on the Comanche and the Z-Coils, though a lot of this information applies to the S-500. (And to a lesser extent, my limited experience with an ASAT Classic SH I briefly owned. I had the good fortune of trading the ACSH for a second Comanche. He was a “Tele” guy, and I’m a “Legacy” guy, so we both walked away happy! I now have two Comanches.)
Once again, let me stress that the tones available from these guitars are well worth pursuing. Don't let it frustrate you. Hey, if you dropped the treble from 7 to 5 and it still sounds harsh, try it with the treble on 2!!! Dime the Mid-range!! Try EVERYTHING. I REALLY had to re-learn my amp, and the settings I use on my MESA amps are totally different than what I use for a Legacy, Legacy Special--or even my Les Pauls.
Finally, don't give up on the sound of the guitar because it's not giving you what you want. The Z-3 ain't your Daddy's Tele, and the Comanche AIN'T gonna sound like a '54 Strat! But, it IS full of great tones--part of getting there is ACCEPTANCE--and that is in your head, and in your heart.
I hope this helps you find the tone you seek.
Here's the post I responded to, and the article:
Comanche for Dummies. Please. Someone write the book. I've been unhappy and wanting to dump my Comanche almost from the very beginning. In actual fact, it's my Comanche who should complain he doesn't have a decent player to unleash his capabilities. Please someone write the book.
The Comanche has taken me more time to adapt to than almost any guitar I have ever owned. I did have a Gibson ES-150DCN that gave me fits before I finally gave up on it, though that was mostly structural. And as much as I love the tone, fit and finish of my ASAT Deluxe--I'm having a hard time to find it any play-time between the Les Paul Classics, the Ibanez Ghostrider and the Ibanez Artstar AS-120--and my assortment of Legacys, S-500s, Legacy Specials, and Comanches.
The Music Man Sabres I bought new many years ago had a similar problem. Fortunately, I figured that guitar out in about 30 minutes--and made a TON of money playing them for the next ten years. Like the Music Man, the Comanche has a different sound, a different voice; and I had to "think outside the box" to get the best tone.
Many of you only have one guitar, or just a few--so it may just be a question of finding a simple, workable tone. For me, I have several guitars to choose from, so it was a matter of defining a space for the Comanche to exist in. The Legacy is my main guitar--and I have several 2HB guitars to choose from. But I also have a pair of S-500s (one modified), and two Legacy Specials. My search was to find a place for the Comanche to fit in, or they were going to sit in the closet--or in someone else's.
Certainly, the Comanche issue for me was not in the Legacy body style (my fav) or the neck, or the DF Vibrato. Some ASAT players find "Strats" weird. Some players with Gibson history find the longer scale difficult to finger. I can't really address those issues. For me it came down to the tone of the Comanche--and those very weird little z-coils.
The first trick to the Comanche is to give up your expectation that the guitar will sound like a vintage Strat with vintage pickups. That is not possible, and you will be disappointed. Then, give up the expectation that you can get this guitar to just like a '59 Sunburst Les Paul, or a 1967 ES-175D, or even an ASAT Special. The Comanche has LOADS of versatility, but it doesn't sound like anything else. Period.
If you have that level of expectations, you will be disappointed. You must clear your mind of any unrealistic expectations. You must let go of your past knowledge. This is a unique guitar with a unique sound. Setting up your amp by using only "What worked in the past", will only hasten your disappointment and lead to failure.
Once you've got a clean slate, you can go to work to discover the guitar's true voice.
Brittle, edgy, shrill--the top end of the z-coil can be a problem. The noiseless design is a Godsend for us single coil faithful, yet z-coils sure don't sound like alnicos--and they certainly hammer the amp unlike any Strat pickup I've ever heard. And to my ear, they sounded a lot like the Music Man Sabre pickups; even though the MMS has a different design, and an on-board preamp--the MMS has that very same sort of edgy top end.
Aaaah! The light came on for me! So I went and dug out an old MXR 10-band EQ and found that the Z-coil really likes a dip of 2-4 dB at 2K. No more edginess, yet the pickup retains the "air" of a single coil. So that worked really well, but for me--I didn't want to have to go back to using the MXR.
With the high output preamp of the MMS, you can lower the pickups quite a bit. The Comanche doesn't have the pre-amp, but still has the power. So, I lowered the pickups just a little less than the normal heights that I set my pickups.
Next, some playing around with the tone controls on my Mesa amps; and I finally realized that the guitar sounded best when the amp's treble and presence were rolled off from my normal settings of 7 and 7 to about 5 and 2, respectively. I changed the settings that I normally use on the PTB controls, too--going from my normal T-10, B-5 to T-7, B-5.
There's something about all that extra top-end going into those 12AX7's that can make for some craziness--take it out and things sort of get back to normal. I found that certain tubes most definitely did not sound very good with the Comanche (and the S-500). I've settled on the EH and JJ 12AX7s (and now also the new Groove Tubes 12AX7-M “Mullard clone”). Cord differences are really noticeable, too. I settled on a very cost-effective Rapco Road Hog cable with a very low capacitance rating.
So, what did I wind up with? Remember the old cowboy movies--you know when they start that fakey "indian music"--that sumthin' BAD is about to happen--and the arrows are about to start flyin'? Well, that's about what happens when my Comanches come out of the case.
First of all, both of mine are drop-dead gorgeous! People wanna see them, and everybody is impressed with the G&L workmanship. The z-coils have an air of mystery about them. Hey, I may not be the best player in the world, but I DO buy good gear! Between the G&Ls and the Mesa amps, I hope to make an impression, even before I get plugged in. Sort of like that Comanche war bonnet striking fear into the minds of the hapless settlers! And believe me, I take no prisoners!
Tonally, with my settings the Comanche is now the biggest, baddest, meanest "Strat" on the block. I have a lot of versatility at my fingertips--I can quack and twang, I can get dark and jazzy; but it is simply the biggest, darkest, clearest, fattest "Strat" you have ever heard. Single coil clarity combined with noise-free humbucker power. Small changes in the tone controls are very noticeable--either at amp or with the PTB controls.
Woman tone? Yes, but not as muddy as a Les Paul. Quack? Sure, but this duck weighs in at 300 lbs--so don't expect Robert Cray! Twang? Yeah, but the Voodoo is in my hands, and it's definitely dark and sinister.
A couple of months ago I did a guest appearance with a classic rock band and just took a Comanche. They asked me to stay and finish the night, and then to come back the next night. I did the whole gig with one guitar, and never missed not having either a Legacy or a Paul in the rack. I haven't done that in YEARS. The Comanche is my bigger, darker-sounding "Strat"; and now I have a definite place for it in my arsenal of guitars.
Finally, I don't know what to call it, but I have a habit of affirming how much I love my guitars when I go on-stage. And I constantly affirm to my self how great these guitars sound. And it seems like the more I "love" my guitars, the more they give back to me, and the better they sound. Want a great little tip about making your whole life better? Apply these affirmations to other areas of your life--it really does work. Love does make the world go 'round. Open your mind: free your heart and soul to make your own music.
I really think that the Comanche is one of those unique guitars that allows your own personality and your own voice to come through. That is the WHOLE SECRET right there: YOUR VOICE--YOUR TONES. Not what someone else does. Being yourself, believing in yourself. You are good enough, you are worthy.
Like the sculptor who created the sculpture of an elephant by just chipping away all the pieces that weren't the elephant, you may have to do a little chipping away to find your tones inside the Comanche. And a lot of that chipping away has to do with chipping away past history and unrealistic expectations.
Now, I won't guarantee that the Comanche will wind up being your Number One. I really recommend that you take a bit of time to learn your Comanche--there are a ton of useable tones in that guitar. And they are all unique and just waiting for you to discover them!
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The AddendumOne of the guys posted in response to “Comanche For Dummies”; and here’s my response:
After several tries with Zcoils there is no way in heaven or on earth I will like those things. I do understand what you are saying Bill and you obviously know your stuff inside out but I don't want to change my expectations of what tones I like and don't like. Using an EQ pedal to tailor the sound may be effective but IMHO there are lots of guitars with pickups out there I don't have to bend over backwards to get a good sound out of so why bother? There is just something about those pickups--you either love em or hate em and I have given my denial about being in the latter. But ain't it great to have so many choices now eh?
You have some really good points, and I can respect your decision to not use the Z-coils. One thing I have learned while searching for "more vintage sounding" pickups to replace the hot Gibson ceramics that are standard in one of my Les Paul Classics--everybody hears things differently--and one man's "greatest" is bound to be someone else's "worst". That holds pretty much true for all gear, be it pickups, tubes, cords, speakers--or the question of "vintage" vs. alkaline 9-volt batteries--if you've got ears like Eric Johnson.
And I agree: it is great to have so many choices.
Right now, at this stage of my life, I am really lucky to have acquired some wonderful instruments. I have owned a Leo Fender-designed guitar of one kind or another for nearly all of my guitar-playing life. My first was a Duo-Sonic, followed by a 1969 Telecaster Thinline; and then a 1960 Strat that I found for $150 in 1972 and kept for nearly 20 years. I bought one of the very first Music Man Sabres when they came out in the late 1970's; and since 1994, a Legacy has been my main stage guitar. One of my more battered Legacys sits on a stand near the sofa--I play it virtually every day--even if only for "noodling".
Yet, even though I couldn't live without a Legacy, the Legacy Special is probably my favorite of all the "Legacy-bodied" G&Ls--I love the humbucking Gotohs for their quiet power and warmth; and their exceptional versatility.
I was intrigued by the Comanche, and when one popped up on E-bay that was just too gorgeous and too cheap to pass up--I took a chance and bought it. I traded my ASAT Classic SH for the second Comanche--he was a "Tele" guy, and I was a "Strat" guy. I never "bonded" with the ACSH, and he never connected with his Comanche--so we made a trade and both of us walked away with something a little more in our comfort zone.
But like many people who buy Comanches, I didn't connect with either one right away. Now, I just hate it when I get "stoopid" and buy a piece of gear that doesn't work for me--and with 40 years in the biz, I have more than my share of clunkers...some I got rid of--usually at a loss--some sit in a box or drawer somewhere. (I'm waiting for some of these clunkers to become "the next big thing"!)
The one thing I knew about the Comanches was that I loved the necks, loved build quality, etc. Everything about the guitar was great, except this little problem with the pickups. And since I hate making mistakes when it comes to buying gear (it really is a character flaw!), I was pretty motivated to "find a solution"--so I wouldn't have to admit that I'd made a mistake! Like I said,...it's a character flaw. LOL!
I was lucky, in that I had faced a similar problem with my Gibson ES-150DCN, and then later with the Music Man. The ES-150 sounded great--through a Fender amp. It sounded like crap through my SUNN. The Sabre, after I learned a few tricks, sounded really good through the SUNN; but I never cared for the sound of it through a Fender. The Sabre's history will show that it did not receive the highest acclaim for its tones from the majority of the guitarists in the world. But there are a lot of folks that love them. I had the positive experience of getting it to work for me. The Gibson, though, I failed at--I never could get that guitar to sound the way I wanted it to--and it had so many other problems that I gave up and moved on to greener pastures. I love the ES-150—every time I see one--I want it; but I am older and wiser now, and I have learned not get involved with certain kinds of floozies that will only break my heart.
So, it really was my experience with the Sabre that led me on the search to find the best tones on the Comanche. The MXR 10-band EQ was something that I used to give my guitars a bass boost on my SUNN amp--and it was a simple matter to notch the 2K slider to smooth out the edginess of the Sabre's top-end.
It is no coincidence that these guitars have that same harshness in the same tonal area, in my opinion. My guess is that Leo heard things slightly different than many of the rest of us--he may have had some hearing loss that required a slight boost at 2K or so, for whatever reason; I can only guess.
If you are looking to get a sound from the Z-coils that is closer to the sound of vintage alnicos--the EQ trick of dipping about 4 dB at 2K works well--to my ear. It leaves the airiness, and takes out the edge.
Now, I am not currently using a 10-band EQ in my rig at present. One of the things that I really like about my MESA amps: I have been able to get a great sound out of every guitar that I have plugged into them. The sweet-spot settings on a Mark III MESA amp makes it about as good as an amp gets, for me. The MESAs have really great tone shaping ability, so I was able to find good sounding settings for my Comanches just by using the tone controls on the amp, but they are very different than the settings I use for my other guitars.
And what I found was a tone that was not what I expected at all out of the Comanche. I love the bright, "poppy" tone of the Legacy’s vintage alnicos, and I love the humbucker warmth of the Legacy Special's Gotohs. (And hey, I LOVE the sound of great humbucker in a Les Paul, too!) What I created with the Comanche was a darker, more powerful tone that is still identifiable as being "Strat-like". Darker and more powerful than any "Strat", yet the Z-coils retain that incredible definition of a single coil, without the muddiness of a PAF style humbucker--and they are totally quiet.
With my MESAs, the rhythm tones are clear, articulate and defined. On the R2 crunch channel on both my Mark III and Mark IV--the Z-coils have the power to make this "intermediate" gain channel really scream. And on the Boogie's lead channel, the z-coils really sing. My Boogies have the built-in 5-band EQ, and small changes to the EQ allow me to vastly change the character of the Z-coil's distortion tone. The pickups are just slightly microphonic, and I have used the guitars PTB controls to dial in the feedback harmonic--a really cool effect.
So, I went from being a bit frustrated with the Comanche, to being totally pleased with them, and I am hanging on to both of mine--and if I find another good deal on a gorgeous one when I have some cash in my pocket--I wouldn't think twice about getting another!
Is it my favorite G&L? No, I would still give the nod to the standard Legacy, or the LS. And frankly, for a lot of Classic Rock and Blues players--I would recommend a Legacy and a Legacy Special as being the best "pair" of guitars. On the gigs with my band, I'm taking these and a 2HB guitar--and a lot of the time anymore, I hardly touch the 2HB guitar at all.
I think the Comanche is going to appeal to players who want a versatile guitar--a more powerful "Strat" style guitar that is totally quiet, yet without the muddy tones associated with an HB pickup. The guys who play these guitars--well, they might be a little, um...different. (Maybe like guys who drive...SAABS?) LOL!!! I think it's a good choice for a guy who is a one-guitar-guy; but it can also be a good choice for a player who has a stable full of guitars and uses one when he needs something "special and/or different".
I'm not sure I would recommend the Comanche to most players. It is a different animal, to be sure. I totally agree with your thoughts that there are plenty of other guitars with good tone right out of the box--and why bother with something you have to work so hard at to make it sound good? It's a good point.
What I can tell you is that in my experience with the Z-coils, people seem to be really impressed with the tones I'm getting. Nobody has made any comment about them sounding shrill or harsh--they have commented on the powerful sound, the fatness of tone, the clarity, the ability to go from twangy country to Wes Montgomery tone in a split second. Every time I take one of these out they gather a lot of interest. They have not failed to satisfy me. I'm very happy with my purchases, and very glad that I took the time to find a solution for making them work for me. They are getting the job done. There are good tones in these guitars--but, I agree--they might not work for everybody. Yes sir, it is great to have these choices.
I can't really say that I either "love OR hate" the Comanche's Z-coils. Let's just say that I love the guitars, and I respect the Z-coils.
When I play these guitars, I get a big smile on my face; and that’s about the best recommendation I could ever give.
Bill
Comanche Keys:1. Clear your mind. Give up the expectations that the Comanche will sound like a ’59 Les Paul Sunburst with PAFs, or a 1961 Strat with Alnicos. The Comanche is unique, with a tremendous range of tonal versatility. Give up your pre-conceived notions. Find YOUR tone.
2. Raise (or Lower) the pickup heights. Comanches have a lot of output. You may find that a lower pickup height gives the best tone.
3. If your guitar has pickup height adjusting springs, try replacing the springs with surgical tubing—this may help with microphonics.
4. A damaged z-coil pickup may have loose windings causing a microphonic high-pitched feedback “squeal”. This is common on MFD pickups (though rare on z-coils) and can be corrected by having the pickup re-potted by a competent luthier.
5. Use a 10-band or parametric EQ to put a slight 2-4 db dip in the 2K range. This removes the “edginess”, and leaves the “air” of a single coil.
6. You may need to re-think your guitar’s PTB controls. I set my other G&Ls up with the PTB on T-10 and B-5, and then vary them as I need to. With the Comanche, I set the PTB at T-8 and B-5.
7. I use good quality low-capacitance cable(s). But, in this case, a cheaper cable with higher capacitance may actually sound “better”, since the added capacitance can smooth out any top end harshness.
8. If you are using a tube-driven overdrive pedal, check to make sure that it is a smooth sounding tube with very low noise and it must be totally non-microphonic. Any “harshness” in the circuit will create further harshness down the line.
9. Again, make certain that you are using a good quality, non-microphonic pre-amp tube in the V1 socket of your amp, as well as in the socket for your lead channel, if any. Some brands seem to work better than others. The extended high frequency response of the z-coils can drive some tubes crazy.
10. Back off your amp’s Treble and Presence controls. There’s no reason that they always HAVE to be on “7”, right? It might sound really good with T-4 and P-2. You may be able to raise your amp’s gain or master volume with less treble—and you may want to dial in more mids, too. The big payoff here is that your amp will be quieter, and practically noise-free, now that it is not boosting the “hiss”.