toggle switch used on early CLF/G&L guitars

Does anyone know where I can get a toggle switch. The type I am after was used on the first G&L F100 and previous musicman sabre guitar but not sure if later models had them. Hopefully you can see what they look like on the picture below. They are quite small and various switching formats used for bright, split coil and out of phase, but was more important to me is the finding an exact match. They had black,white and red plastic "hoods".

Graeme,
Those colors were to distinguish between coil split, phase reversal and pre amp on and off. They are different switches so you need to know what you are trying to do since they aren't necessarily interchangeable. I believe the manufacturer for those was Alco but I would have to check tonight when I get back to the house. Hope this helps,
Fred

Last edited by Fred Finisher on Tue Sep 18, 2012 11:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

Fred
Thanks for replying, I was hoping you might be able to help with this one. It never occurred to me that the switch colours related to their function. I'll come clean, the reason why I am looking for a matching switch is that I am considering adding a split coil switch to one of my musicman sabre guitars. I'll keep this short but I have been thinking of moving the musicman on bit to where G&L took off. My aim is to add in a split coil switch (relatively straightforward) and possibly a G&L dual fulcrum bridge(radical surgery so will give this a little more thought) to create a guitar that closes the gap between the last musicman(CLF) and first G&L. Please don't to ask why, it is just something I want to do. If it it not practical I wont do anything. I can get the correct switch type from my F-100 but what is important is matching the correct plastic cap, sounds daft but I want to finish up with a guitar that could in theory have come out the the CLF factory. Going back to the switches, the intention is to have the red (split coil) seated between the white(bright) and black(out of phase) switches which I think will look tidy, there is enough space to achieve this.

If you dig out any information I would most grateful.

Graeme,
I misspoke (wrote) when I said the white switch was a coil splitter. The Sabre has a Bright and, Phase reverse. If you decide to drill into the plate and add a switch, it should be easy to find the proper color switch cap. If you have any problems finding one that fits, just let me know because I know I have some NOS ones here that I bought from the factory when I was there. The switch you need is known as an ON/ON and it has three wiring lugs on the back. Stew-mac carries some but I am not sure of the brand or if they are made in the states. All the parts for your Sabre were made in the states. I hope this helps,
Fred

You might be out of luck on this. AIR, the Sabre pickups are 2-conductor, and I think sealed. On one of mine, I added a second Sabre bridge pickup in the middle, a 5-way switch, and used the phase switch for the 7-way switching.

You can sometimes find those pickups, it's worth doing if you can.

You don't really need the splitter anyway. That's what the Brite switch is for. I normally set the Brite ON, T-10 , B-5. Brite OFF and neck pickup should give you thick, PAF woman-tone.

Bill

Graeme,
If you happen to need a Musicman pickguard for your project,
I have an old one in good shape in my parts drawer (Black).

Cheers

Fred
I might take you up if you have a spare red cap switch. So far the match I have found is from a factory in Portugal who only sell by the 1000!

Bill
Thanks for word of caution, I have already investigated and luckily the p/u is not sealed. The coils are loose and linked by a short wire to form a 2-wire series loop. I plan to cut the adjoining wire and attach each end to 2 new wires. This now makes the p/u a 4-wire unit; the relevant wires can then go to the new switch for either single/two coil mode. I am not sure what the tonal difference will be make (due the p/u being low impedance) but hoping it will be distinct and something similar to the F-100. I will try it out with the switch inside before committing to drilling control plate. I can always reinstate without affecting the guitar if it doesn't work.
Intrigued by the idea of adding a third middle p/u. I guess this would have to be an original to again match the low impedance of the bridge and neck p/u.

Elwood
Thanks for offer but plan to get chandler's to make me a 3-ply mother of pearl as they have the pattern. How ever it is worth knowing as I have quite few sabres and parts are like the proverbial.

The real challenge will then be opting to do the tremolo. I have done a dimension check and so far everything checks out. I could use a new dual fulcrum but an original would be more authentic. I think the only significant difference is the original bridges had a smaller tremolo bar with the serial number stamped in. I get one hit at routing out the body to house the bridge and springs, but have two G&L guitars to use as a reference. If there is some cutting dimensions available that would be great. I would then need a back plate. I have checked on the G&L on line store but these do not seem to be available. Is there a way of obtaining one of these? I would prefer chrome.

Here is a picture of the guitar I plan to use. Imagine it with a dual fulcrum bridge, mother pearl pick guard and possibly a third p/u!

Graeme,
I will be happy to send you a red cap for your switch. Send me an address and I will get it off to you. Although this will be easy to remedy if you decide to return to original, you might want to reconsider routing the body for pickups or tremolo. Once you do this serious collectors will not want it anymore. As you know, your guitar is a fine instrument both sonically and in workmanship. We didn't make that many of them so if the tide turns and the collectors decide to invest in them, you might have some regrets about not being able to put it back to original. If you decide to go forward, you should look into what Gabe has for parts because he offers parts that are made to factory specs. His company is called E.S.I. and there is a link for it on this site.
Fred

Fred
I will email you my address.

I take your advise about altering the guitar. I have four sabres and three stingrays and count myself an serious collector. I have a reasonable idea of their market value and the negative effect that a back yard modification will have so plan to to this properly. Like I said before the aim is to create a plausible factory upgrade, but believe me I am struggling with the morals of possibly butchering an original . To make things a little easier this guitar was bought earlier this year in the UK for £500($780) which is a crying shame really for such a fine instrument. I did not really want it as I already had an identical model but could not say no at that price. Generally I expect to pay 900-1100 USD for a sabre guitar in sound condition which is still a steal compared to similar aged fenders.

Adding the split coil switch, in my opinion, creates a legitimate factory mod. I think CLF missed an obvious trick not including this feature. The addition of a tremolo is stretching the "factory mod" argument a bit but I strongly believe(as a collector) the guitar should have been offered with this option when it was first launched. I can not think of any technical reason why not but suspect it might have had something to do with the costs/politics going on between CLF and Musicman at the time. Not sure when the dual fulcrum was first developed but one possibly could have been added to the last sabre production runs. I hope there will be no adverse reduction in the tone quality by routing the body to form the space for the tremolo bridge and springs as the distinctive sound is mostly made up from the active electronics. However, there will be only one way of finding out.

Thanks for the pointing out the link to Gabe's ESI business. Great to see he does the early tremolo arms and back plates. I think I am going to have chat with him.

The plan is now to tackle the "upgrade" in two stages by doing the split coil first then take a break to have a re-think, before installing the tremolo.

Graeme.
Smart move, I'll never forget the time I had a kid bring me a pristine '58 Strat his uncle gave him (stored under a bed for decades) and asked me to install a Floyd Rose. This was in the early eighties before any of us knew what these guitars would be worth and I refused to do the mod and offered to build him anything he wanted from scratch in exchange for the guitar if he was bent on doing it instead. He reconsidered and hopefully never did it. Sounds like you have a great collection there. By the way, the dual fulcrum was not yet invented when the Sabre was in production. If I remember correctly, the S-500 was the first production dual fulcrum instrument we produced. Around the same time there was a mod version offered that simply said G&L Custom on it without any numbers that could be purchased separately. I'll wait to hear from you on the address,
Fred

Fred

Hope you got my email

I have just got to listen to good advice. I am now looking into the future trying to sell the guitar wondering what processed me to spend a load of money and no one wants it. But once that you have an idea eating away inside you its hard to let it go. Plan B: what I could do with is a spare body to do the mods on and then I can always turn the guitar back to original. That will be a search and a half finding a spare sabre body but I have seen spares on the market so you never know one may be about. I guess it is usually the preamp going that causes these guitars to be broken for spares.

If anyone has a spare sabre body please get in touch.

If I remember correctly, the S-500 was the first production dual fulcrum instrument we produced.

Fred,

Were the F-100s with DFVs not considered production instruments? Mine has the serial number (G000504) stamped on the DFV, and has a body date from September 1980:



You'll be pleased to know that the finish is nearly as clean as when it left the factory, and completely check-free!



Ken

Ken,
It's amazing #504 has made it this far in that condition.


#893 has been to hell and back...



There's some thin spots where stickers were,she needs new(old skinny) saddles , missing guts when I got her,lots of checking
Being pretty isn't her forte' these days, but the action is crazy low with no buzz ,
...there's some magic in the early ones and boy can she sing !!




Elwood

KenC,
You can see why Gabe is writing the book and I'm not. Some of the technical details and chronology are a bit sketchy after all these years. That guitar is in great shape for it's age.
Fred

Ken
Beautiful finish, I was told that the serial numbers began at G000500 which would make yours the 5th one! is that correct? What is interesting about its body date being September 1980 is that my F-100 II, serial number G001038 also stamped on the DFV, is dated 12th August 1980 on the the body which makes a bit older even though it is 534 guitars behind! I can only guess they were stockpiling bodies, necks and parts before the production run.
Fred
I know this is going off on a tangent but can you recall when production stopped for sabre guitars? I am sure they were still being sold after the early F-100's. Was there a period when both were being made at the same time? In George Fullerton's book he states that by 1979 they were almost there with the DFV, saddle loch and MDF p/u, which gives some credence to at least the possibility the sabre could have been considered for a DFV. I guess they were keeping these innovations under wraps for their plans with G&L.

Graeme,
As far as stockpiling goes, the normal procedure for production was that after the bodies were finished, they were sent over to cure before buffing and polishing. This was a minimum of 14 days. this meant there were hundreds of bodies stored at any one time waiting to be polished and assembled. If a body was not needed to fill an order it might sit there for quite a while. This accounts for differences in body and neck dates also. The dates were stamped on the parts when they were being finished in the wood shop.
The Sabre and F100 overlap was not much at all because when Tommy Walker found out about the G&L plan he froze the orders. Obviously, there were some that had to be completed to fill already placed orders or replacements for any warranty work, but the Sabre stopped as quick as he could do it without upsetting dealers. The vibrato was most likely close to being finished in the later part of '79 but there was no way Leo was going to put it on a guitar he was planning on making obsolete. This is where Gabe will be able to shed some light because he has lots of documentation and patent drawings that will clear up some of these questions. It was quite an exciting time because of the uncertainty to say the least.
Fred

I was told that the serial numbers began at G000500 which would make yours the 5th one! is that correct?

My understanding is that the bridges were pulled at random from a bin as guitars were made, with no attempts to keep them in any sort of order. According to G&L's website, the "first recorded serial number" was G000530. I've read somewhere (it may have been George Fullerton's book) that the lower numbers were kept for special instruments, but if you look in the Registry there are a smattering of serial numbers between G000504 and G000529 on production instruments. He might have been talking about numbers below G000500. All I can say for sure is that this F-100 has the lowest registered serial number, and looks like it just left the showroom.

My L-1000 has serial number B000728, with pre-production neck (July 14 1980) and body (June 22 1980) dates. The official "first recorded serial number" from G&L's website is B000518. The L-1000 is also nearly unscathed by time. It even had the registration card and case candy when I got it earlier this year!

Ken