Leo vs. Leo: 64 Precision vs. 80 L-1000

This is intended to be an in-depth Leo vs. Leo analysis, comparing the build details of a 1964 Fender Precision bass and a 1980 G&L L-1000 bass. These basses were both manufactured in Fulleron California, about a mile down the railroad tracks from each other. I am still learning things that I did not know, and really the information is evergreen, so I am posting this (originally on instagram) examination on the guitarsbyleo site, .

There are over 60 images in this post, apologies if that is too many, or causes slow loading. I can change the file sizes if that is determined to be desired. This has been an extended project for me, but it is something that I had wanted to do for many years. I bought my first G&L in 1981, a custom color special order through Leo himself. If my facts or conclusions are incorrect, then please open a discussion.

I chose a 1964 Precision Bass because it represents Leo's final Precision Bass design created under his ownership and control at Fender, and the 1980 G&L L-1000 is his first bass guitar design at G&L where he continued and completed his development of his original single-pickup electric bass concept. Leo's signature is a trademark of G&L/BBE Sound, but thus far https://instagram.com/clfresearch has not complained about this non-commercial use.

Leo famously stated that G&Ls were the best instruments that he had ever made, hopefully this series of posts will help illuminate why he was so confident in making such a statement.



Strap buttons: I'm a bass player, so I am going to start at the bottom. These are things that a lot of people replace pretty quickly with some kind of strap lock system. Fender strap pins are larger and certainly better than Gibson's, but Leo went to these oversized pins when designing MusicMan instruments to address what he obviously felt was an area that could be improved upon. In my opinion, Leo's strap buttons make any kind of strap lock system unnecessary.

So Advantage: G&L.



Bridges: The early Fender bridges were and are probably the first thing that gets replaced when one wants to upgrade an instrument. There is an industry devoted to better replacement bridges. Leo used a threaded rod to make the saddles in 1964. This does you give you the option of adjusting the spacing of the strings at the bridge, or the option of having your strings splayed inconsistently.

In 1964, there was still a foam mute installed under the bridge cover going for more of a stand-up bass sound. This foam in the ashtray is now mostly rotted away on my example, and does not perform the function it was designed to. I did buy another bridge cover and put some foam in it just to experience the factory setup. My opinion: the rotting away of the foam mute was a feature not a bug.

As rudimentary as this bridge design looks, don't forget that it is the *improved* four saddle Fender bass bridge!

By 1980, sustain was the thing. During his late 60s-era consultancy at Fender (there are multiple reports that the CBS Ivy League MBAs then running Fender privately ridiculed Leo's ideas) Leo worked on a bridge prototype that used string tension to lever a rod to the endgrain of the wood. Too fussy, but the concept was perfected in Leo's saddle lock bridge introduced in the first G&L instruments.

This new bridge is generally recognized as one of Leo's best design upgrades. It has a boss cast onto it that fits in a route in the body and transfers string vibration directly to the end grain of the wood. It also has a locking feature, with an allen screw you can tighten the saddles against each other making it a mechanically solid mass to maximize sustain. The saddle-lock bridge has no sharp edges and is a huge multi-faceted improvement over his earlier bridge design. Again, Leo fixed it.

This bridge is used on current G&L production instruments. I believe the original cast zinc saddles are now cast brass, but other than chrome or powdercoat finishes, that's the only change I am aware of.

Advantage: G&L.



Knobs: Knobs are a subjective thing. The '64 Precision knobs are perfectly fine. I'm not sure what metal they are made of, they are pretty light so I would guess zinc, maybe somebody knows. But when Leo started G&L, George Fullerton designed a larger knob with an indexing mark to show at a glance the position of the potentiometers. These new knobs were machined on Fender Avenue, they are made of aluminum and then plated.

For decades in the G&L world, these knobs were called 'hens teeth' because of their rarity. On occasion the plating might flake off from the substrate, photo 5 is an example of that (or you can ask @eltononbass ) but mostly they have held up very well. But when Dave McLaren started the CLF Research line of basses and guitars they restored Leo's old machinery to manufacture these knobs again on Fender Avenue, and Machinist Mike who made these in the 80s got the opportunity to revisit his skills and make them again.

Photo 6 shows the prototype knobs re-developed in 2018, along with the current finished product. The only difference from the 1980's knobs is a hex screw vs. the original slotted screw.

Gotta say it: Advantage G&L



Controls and switches: The Precision Bass has your basic original volume and tone pots. Not much to see here. Simple, effective, the standard of the industry. The Precision has Stackpole pots and the G&L has CTS.

The G&L has a volume pot, and separate treble cut and bass cut knobs which actually are a lot more useful than one might think. Personally, I often in Position 3 (OMG) mode use the bass cut to provide the amount of definition that I want. The L-1000 also has the 3-way micro switch that allows you to select the dual coil pickup in parallel humbucking mode, single coil mode, or what is now marketed as OMG but what Leo called "Single coil with bass boost." Electronically, it is series humbucking mode with a cap to bleed off the highs from the neck coil, while retaining all the high frequency output from the bridge coil along with the full bass output that the series humbucking mode can generate. Sonically, it is precisely as Leo described it and one of the most unique and definitive features of the Wunkay.

I should probably mention that photo 4 shows the pickguard shrinkage exposing the aluminum shielding plate on the Precision, and that the G&L pickguard won't shrink because there is no pickguard, also stepping on your guitar cord won't break the mounting for the output jack, because it's good old chromed steel, although I've seen some bent ones. Bulletproof, and ready for another 40 years. I had not noticed before that there is no bottom shielding on the control route of the Pbass, but there is a brass plate on the 1K.

Many people don't know the guitar 1/4" plugs and jacks originated with the ubiquitous telephone switchboards of the past. These literal "phone plugs" are what switchboard operaters used to connect phone calls. Leo used them because they were cheap and easily available. I actually ran one of these switchboards as a night auditor in a historical hotel in college. The actual phone plugs on the board that I used were brass, they had a round tip and were not shielded.

Advantage: G&L




Pickups: The Precision has Leo's iconic split coil series humbucker. This punchy alnico is one of the watershed accomplishments of Leo's career, and nobody did anything like this before he did. It's the sound you've heard your whole life and it just sounds right, because it is right. I get it. What I don't so much get is the number of people who feel that they have to replace these with something hotter, fatter, wower, or expensiver.

The G&L features Leo's MFD (Magnetic Field Design) ceramic magnet soft iron adjustable pole-piece coil-splittable humbucking pickup. Higher output, more frequently response, and with the coil switch, much more versatile. You can get really close to a precision bass sound on single coil position with bass and treble around 7:00 or so, but you can't really match it. This pickup can be round, fat, and punchy. It also has greater treble response, and everything can be shaped by the two tone controls.

The pole pieces changed from large hex, to slotpole, to small hex by spring of 1982. Note that by late 1981, the cover has a patent number that the 1980 version lacks. This is strictly a judgement call, but I think Leo's MFD bass pickup edges out his earlier alnico designs. Leo thought so, too.

Advantage: G&L





Pickup mounting: In 1964 Leo was running the mounting screws for the precision bass pickup directly into the wood, a piece of compressed foam supported the height adjustment, or at least it would until it disintegrated.

The L-1000 provides a 3-point mounting arrangement so you can tilt the pickup on Its axis. The mounting machine screws go into brass ferrules installed in the wood and metal springs secure the height adjustment of the pickup. It is a solid mounting arrangement, more versatility, more longevity. There have been complaints about "spring ping" with this arrangement, reportedly foam stuffed inside the springs will negate this. I have personally never experienced it.

At some point, G&L returned to Leo's original wood screws and foam arrangement for pickup mounting. So, I guess the 1980 didn't stand the test of time. It is kind of fussy. While I used to think the 1980 mounting method was clearly better, I an no longer so certain. I do think it is cooler, though.

I am also displaying that, although this 1980 L-1000 is a very convincing Clear Forest Green color, in reality it is a yellowed blue. Dave McLaren's log says it was completed on October 9th, 1980.

Advantage: None.





Truss Rods: The truss rods on both the 64 Precision and the 1980 L-1000 are the compression type. A bent rod is put under tension to bow back the neck. The main difference between these two rods is the '64 Precision has the adjustment nut at the base of the neck and is partially covered by the body and pickguard. The '64 truss rod nut means that you have to remove the neck or hack away enough pickguard to allow adjustment. Not ideal.

The 1980 skunk stripe neck has the nut at the peg head, and a 1/8-in Allen wrench will turn it without removing or touching anything else. This arrangement was introduced by Leo in the same factory with MusicMan. 1980 arrangement is much better.

Truss rods are one thing that have gone through several iterations in the lifetime of Leo designed and manufactured instruments in Fullerton California. In 1983 he introduced the bi-cut longitudinally installed compression rod, then they went back to a rod that was installed underneath the fretboard, and ultimately G&L now provides a dual rod setup that can bend the neck forward or backward. 4mm, and always use the correct Allen wrench, you can't replace the nut anymore as it is welded to the rod.

Total No Brainer. Advantage: G&L



Neck Attachment: Leo's initial 4 bolt attachment method works fine. Move along, nothing to see here. But, the G&L has George Fullerton's three-bolt precision tilt attachment. The advantage the G&L has is you can tilt the neck simply by loosening the screws and turning a grub screw with an Allen wrench, then re-tighting the screws. it works great, it sounds great. Simple and effective.

The knock people seem to have about the three bolt attachment is mostly related to a Fender CBS era attempt to implement a similar arrangement which by most accounts was very poorly executed. Once a three bolt mount got a poor reputation, it is my theory that some guitar repairmen started to overtighten the G&L screws, trying to make sure it would be solid and thus were able to create a ski jump situation in these necks. This is a common knock on G&L, the necks tend to ski-jump. I have owned over a dozen G& L basses from the control plate era, only once has a neck exhibited signs of ski jump and I was able to correct that with heat and pressure.

Another knock on the G&L mount I've heard, you don't have enough wood to wood contact, harming the tone. Yeah, maybe there's less wood to wood contact when the neck is tilted back, but you've also got metal to metal contact under pressure in there, which the Fender doesn't have. Tone is something that any informed person will agree that G&L has in spades.

The first time I posted this neck mount comparison in the spring of 2020, @clfresearch commented on my post thusly:

"That was awesome. The reason we gave up on our 3-bolt in the late '90s was directly because of the bad rep of the '70s. Pick your battles. This one wasn't worth it and I've got old scars to prove it. ; )"

I am frankly not convinced that the current 6-bolt attachment is actually better than the 4 bolt, but this is Leo 1964 vs. Leo 1980.

So, Advantage: G&L



Position side marker dots. Nobody much cares about this but me, and maybe this is being picky, but the reality is that the '64 Precision has clay dots along with 1/16 in clay side marker dots placed right between the rosewood board and the maple neck. Under certain stage light conditions, these dots disappear. The G&L dots, although Leo would wisely increase the size to 3/32 within a year, are much more visible under stage llighting.

Advantage: G&L



Necks: This one is more subjective. The '64 precision has a very wide and flattish neck profile which is very similar to the G&L 1000. The Fender has a C neck and it's 1 3/4 inches wide at the nut. It is notable to me that, after CBS took over at Fender, the necks got much rounder, more of a baseball bat profile. But Leo kept his flat necks at G&L. The G&L is 1 11/16 at the nut, and is slightly smaller in all measurable dimensions, and to me, slightly more comfortable. The G&L has one extra fret if you want to play that high E. Something that I did not notice until now is that the position marker dots are noticably larger on the G&L than the Fender Precision. Since I prefer the feel of the G&L neck and I am writing this, I get to choose the winner. Your mileage may vary.

Advantage: G&L




Tuning keys: Kluson was the traditional supplier of machine heads for Fender, but according to Karl Olmstead, Race & Olmstead Tool and Die started making tuners for Leo just before the sale to CBS. If someone knows how to tell the difference between Kluson and R&O tuning keys, I would be interested in that information. These reverse keys are kind of sloppy and kind of big and probably weigh too much for what they're doing, but they're okay. Tuning keys are another item that would be switched out when someone would hot rod their Fender bass.

However, in 1980 Leo went overseas to Schaller for their German tuning keys, Schaller had also made the branded MusicMan keys. If these machine heads were not the best in the world in 1980, someone will have to convince me of that. These were called by Schaller BML keys, I am told that this stood for "Bass Machine Light." My belief is that at G&L, Leo understood that his market was at the top end, he no longer had his brand so he had to make up for it with his quality.

The MusicMan branded Schaller keys had a tapered post, but the early G&L Schallers had a straight post, and I don't know why this was. Patent issue? By late 1981 the posts on G&L's keys gained the taper, and by 1990 the post was made of aluminum which saved almost 1 ounce of weight per key. The story is that Dale Hyatt was trying to shave neck weight to counteract neck dive on his new ASAT bass design (it is simply L-2000 electronics on a guitar ASAT body,) and Helmut Schaller suggested the aluminum post. The ASAT bass also featured a 1 1//2" nut width as standard.

Speaking of weight, since the weight of vintage basses is so important these days I've posted the weights of both of these basses on my wife's postage scale. This Blue/Green 1980 Ash body 1K is exceptionally light.

Advantage: G&L



Frets: I'm not certain what Leo called these in 1964, but I have a pretty good idea. He called them frets. The narrow gauge "vintage" fretwire was probably the only available when Leo designed his Fender instruments. The industry has moved to larger frets, and these "medium jumbos" on the G&L L-1000 are pretty close to the industry standard these days. Larger frets last longer. There is some difference in tone, but not enough to worry about on a bass. In my opinion.

This '64 Precision still has the original frets, and I think they have one more dressing of life in them. I keep changing my mind whether I am going to do that. For now, the answer is no, and I have Thomastik Infeld Flats on it so the frets should hold up for the duration of my ownership.




Headstocks: I've always liked the early G&L paddle headstocks. I think they're very nicely done. However, Leo's original 1954 Stratocaster peghead is the most iconic shape in the industry. It is a universally recognized silhouette, and probably will be for all time.

I've also included photos of two variations on the G&L hook headstock, introduced in 1983 in response to a threatened lawsuit from the the somewhat paranoid CBS management. Dave McLaren says that this cease-and-desist letter was the brainchild of Bill Schulz and should not have been taken seriously. The story is that Leo was mad as hell. Interestingly, or at least I think so, the SC line of guitars and SB basses kept their very similar headstocks, I can only assume that they were not mentioned in the cease-and-desist letter because they hadn't reached the market yet sufficiently to get CBS's corporate attention. At any rate, the non-hook headstocks continued to be used on the SC- and SB instruments beyond the end of Leo's life.

Advantage: Fender ...If this headstock had a telecaster shape or the horribly gauche (IMO) 1960s CBS headstock, it would be advantage G&L.





This post is just to point out some odd features of these Leo designed guitars. The pin router marks are one area that Leo did it exactly the same way both at Fender and G&L. The holes for the pin routers were filled with some kind of wood, these are also at times called birthmarks.The green G&L has dark green circles where these pin router holes were filled, the Fender precision you can see one clearly where the wood has been worn away by belt buckles, and the circular finish crack tells where the other router hole was. For only the first few months of G&L production, the router hole on the back of the neck was hidden by the D tuner while the pin router mark on the precision is covered by the E tuner.

This Pre-CBS Precision has some odd features, the "hootenany knob," the "Fullerton bump," (some limitation in the routers Leo was using leaves this bump in the lower cutaway, if your early Fender does not have this, be very suspicious about its authenticity) the tug bar, and the yellow undercoat. Leo had a vat of alcohol yellow dye to save a step in the sunburst finishing process, this body was dipped in the vat, as almost all bodies were, but got an olympic white custom color instead.


Cases: Both the 64 Precision case and the 1980 G&L case were built by G&G case in Los Angeles, and are very similar in construction. So this is going to be a tie, right? Wrong. The precision case has about an inch and a half of slop front and back. Now there may have been some additional padding in the case when it was new, but it's long gone and looking at similar cases from the era I'm not seeing any padding in them. Whatever padding there was, didn't last 40 years.

The 1980 G&L standard "correct" case had what I call a shimmering rust colored nap. What makes these cases interesting is the block that holds the bass body firmly in place and doesn't let it move around. The specific 1980 G&L that is being examined here, has one of the strangest cases I've ever seen from 1980 and I believe it has to be original. It is a totally form-fitted case. Not only the block that goes up against the body heel under the neck but also it's exactly form fit to the sides. I've never seen another early case like this and wonder if it was a sample or something that G&G was wanting to run by Leo?, Dunno. I do have a G&G form fitting case for a 2010 or so SC-2. The brown fur would become the standard case interior for G&L starting approximately in January 1981 up until sometime in 1985. I have also included photos of a few cases from later G&L years.

Advantage: G&L



Resale value: finally we come to a feature that absolutely and definitely favors brand F. This also highlights what an incredible value that Leo's final and ultimate precision bass design is, if you're buying and not selling.

Advantage: Fender





Conclusion:

In comparing 15 features and build details of this 1964 Fender Precision Bass and this 1980 G&L L-1000 bass, my score is 12-2-1 in favor of G&L. When Leo was still pushing the envelope of his Precision Bass concept, the G&L L-1000 represents the ultimate edge of that envelope. Some of these differences are huge and some are minor, but that is how I see it.

Leo was an innovator, the likes of which the music world has not seen before or since. In his wife Phyllis' book, she says that she once asked him why he never saved any of his guitars. Leo's reply: "The next one I build is going to be so much better. Why would I keep something that's obsolete?" This quote illustrates and documents the fact that Leo was always looking forward, trying to make things better than what currently existed. His final G&L guitars prove this, in spades.

There has never been a line of G&L amplifiers. The reason for this is that Leo didn't think that he could build better amps than he already had built at Fender, or what was already in the marketplace. But he did believe that he could build better guitars and basses, and then he proceeded to do exactly that.

Oh, but we prefer traditional instruments! CBS cared so much about tradition that, after they had sucked the life and the profitabilty and the manufacturing capability out of the brand, they sold the company and Fender guitars had to be made in Japan until the new owners could rebuild and retool. The birthplace of the Stratocaster now houses an auto body shop. New York MBAs may not know dick about guitars, but they know that hard cash has much more value than mere tradition does.

In fairness, this 1964 all-original Olympic White Precision Bass is an excellent bass by any standard. It is a much better bass than I thought I was buying, and it always gets more attention and complements than my G&Ls on the occasions when I drag it out.

But still, the winner of the Leo vs. Leo face-off is ... Leo!

And, if you manage to acquire one of these excellent instruments, still built about a mile down the tracks from the old Fender factory in Fullerton California, encompassing the culmination and full benefit of Leo's lifetime of innovation and experience, then you potentially would be a winner as well.


-Don Erickson

September 8, 2023

Last edited by derick on Wed Sep 13, 2023 8:29 am, edited 6 times in total.

Not as long a read as it seems; once I got going, I was hooked. Thanks for that excellent and informative post!

Don,

Fantastic comparison! Loads of cool information here and makes me want to find a 1980 L1000. Have an L2000 but different animal for sure..

Not as long a read as it seems; once I got going, I was hooked. Thanks for that excellent and informative post!

I'm glad that you enjoyed it. I never apologize for being too long-winded on the internet, if someone gets bored then i figure they've already clicked off to read about shocking secrets of Gilligan's Island.

Don,

Fantastic comparison! Loads of cool information here and makes me want to find a 1980 L1000. Have an L2000 but different animal for sure..

I think you can get most L-1000 sounds out of a 2000, but it does have a different vibe for two such closely related instruments.

I just realized that I've made a couple of mistakes with the images, I will edit the post but here they are so you don't have to slog through...

Yellow dye under finish:



Fullerton Bump



Hootenanny Knob



Regards,

-Don

Don, thanks for posting this. I really enjoyed reading your post and seeing all the photos to go along with it!

Don, thanks for posting this. I really enjoyed reading your post and seeing all the photos to go along with it!

Thanks, as I stated, this was originally a series of instagram posts, I keep editing it and will probably put it on a normal web page at some point.

Instagram isn't really the best venue to publish something like this, but I was able to focus on a single aspect at a time.

Regards,

-Don

Really enjoyed the read and info.
I wonder if the same storyline would hold true for the six string guitars. Like Tele vs ASAT, Strat vs Legacy.
One would tend to think so, which begs the question: Why aren't G&L guitars more popular? Why is there such a value difference for used instruments?

Really enjoyed the read and info.
I wonder if the same storyline would hold true for the six string guitars. Like Tele vs ASAT, Strat vs Legacy.
One would tend to think so, which begs the question: Why aren't G&L guitars more popular? Why is there such a value difference for used instruments?

When I received and had played my 1981 L-1000 for a while, I felt that it was so superior to the CBS-era basses that G&L would take over the market. I was wrong.

I think that lots of guitar players have an "idol" that they try to emulate, and this idol is almost certainly not going to be playing G&L. It is also amazing to me that some guitarists will pay 4 grand for a Fender copy, but won't buy a guitar evolved by Leo himself.

Personally, I am glad that used G&Ls were and are so cheap compared to Leo's other two companies' instruments that were made under his ownership.

When describing wines, I often use this example; If you find a cheap wine that you like, there are two possible explanations:

Either you have poor taste, or you have a bargain.

I choose B.


Regards,

-Don

Excellent post. At this point I wouldn't worry about re-fretting your P-Bass since it is "players grade" which is a great thing. I will keep my eye out for an early 80's L-1000 to go with my beat up 81 F-100.

Thanks Don, that was a great read. Now I want an early 80s L1000.

Thanks Don, that was a great read. Now I want an early 80s L1000.

They used to be plentiful and cheap. Now they are neither.

Here's a photo of me in winter 1982 with my 3 month old White/Ebony 1K. I do remember that the pie plate cymbal took a chunk out of my headstock on this gig. Not nearly as catastrophic as it seemed at the time.

great '80's content derick!
there's a guy in my area who plays one of these old early '80's L 1000's in a local blues band.
he said for feel, playability and tone, it's the best bass he's ever played. i believe it!

there's a guy in my area who plays one of these old early '80's L 1000's in a local blues band.
he said for feel, playability and tone, it's the best bass he's ever played. i believe it!

After I got my L-1000 in November 1981, I never needed a better or a different bass. The G&L is good enough. I figured that if there was a problem in the signal chain, it could be blamed on operator error.

Regards,

-Don

Great stuff Don! Appreciated.

- Jos

Don,

That was fun! Well done.