HNGsD

Well, I was intrigued by one of these guitars and made a pretty low offer that was accepted. The first one is a supposed prototype 1980 F-100 that is in absolute mint condition. The only thing I can tell that makes it a prototype is the bridge and the fact that it has no serial number. Some cryptic markings in the neck pocket too. See what you think. Any of you long time G&L historians or employees seen this bridge before?

The second is Broadcaster 813. Ebony board and in exe condition.







Cool swirl in the Ebony.






Ok, so check out this bridge. Basic Saddle Lock, or Lock Tight as they were probably still calling them. But only two screws attaching it to the body, weird huh?


And, it came with a really cool letter signed by Leo Fender.


And here's the Broadcaster 813.











Hope you enjoy these pics and do please comment on the F-100 if you can shed any light on its origin.

Tom

Tom,

VERY nice guitars, and always great to score the low ball offer. No clue on the bridge question, someone with more knowledge than I will have to answer. Enjoy those sweet guitars!

Congrats on a couple of "Historic" G&L's.

Here are my comments and thoughts on the F-100:

Regarding the bridge:


All hardtail (Locktight bridge) F-100's that I have seen have just two mounting screws and are string through. We have several examples here on the G&LDP and Gallery.

Here's a photo of my 1981 F-100 bridge:


Regarding the neck pocket markings:



-The "REED 1-17-1980" was probably done by Steve Reed who was the Woodshop Foreman.

-The "Tom K. 1-16-80" is probably another G&L craftsperson.

-The "P.X. Gonar" is probably another G&L craftsperson.

-What looks like three initials in the bottom left of the neck pocket is also seen on the neck heel. But I cannot tell what these initials are, perhaps "JPQ"?

The fact that the bridge has no G&L marking or serial number leads me to think that this is a prototype of the "Locktight" bridge.

You might want to reach out to Fred Finisher, who likely painted the body and neck. He mentioned in a past post that he worked with Steve Reed on many projects.
Also, check with Gabe (GPD) and Larry Garret (HLG), as they may be able to find some reference to a prototype F-100E hardtail guitar in the Log book(s).

The Gruhn Ad mentioned that the original shipping container had "Prototype" on it. Did you get the original shipping container and if so, can you post photos of it?

Again, nice scores on both guitars.

Wow,
Those are some exciting additions, I can't add any knowledge. I love that letter,
that should be framed and kept out of bright lights.
I'm seeing the same open pore pattern on the fretboard as on the F-100 that we were
discussing recently (rosewood or ebony discussion).

Nice to see that proto bought by a G&LDPer, hopefully there is a scribble in the Logbook that
backs up it's history...though I have no doubts, the factory box designation seems like solid
proof.

Ya know, I didn't get the box which is a matter I need to discuss with my buddy at Gruhn's.

My thoughts on the bridge are, whereas I assume there had to be some prototypes of the Locktight Bridge, they were made and branded as Music Man bridges with serial numbers while Leo and George were making guitars for MM in the mid seventies. So, was there an early interim period where they obviously could not use MM bridges but needed bridges made while developing the F-100 for G&L? After all, with the dates on the body being mid January of 1980 it precedes the forming of G&L legally, no? The neck is April 1980 so even that is very early G&L. But they already had F-100 Series E II decals made.

Very interesting and I hope that Gabe, Fred and Larry see this and chime in with some significant intel. My other early F-100 has the dual fulcrum bridge with serial number and G&L badging but that was a year latter.

Thanks for the input and please, keep it coming "if you know something, say something".

Tom

Great stuff Tom! Congrats!

- Jos

Nice guitars, please save some for the rest of us.

Does that f-100 have a an extra mini toggle switch?

Also get the box from George Gruhn. If it was worth mentioning in the ad, you should have been sent the whole package.

Nice guitars!

y2kc

Wow, Tom, that's a good day fishing for early G&L's!
Looks like an extra mini-toggle on the control plate of the F-100 - something to do with the pre-amp?
Pretty colors on the fretboard, and some of that "black splatter" dot effect i see on mine, perhaps peculiar to ebony?
Looks like you've discovered the "missing link" in bridges between MM and G&L.
Beautiful F-100!
Broadcaster is a looker as well. If only 690 broadcasters were made, I presume the SN's were non-sequential.
Congratulations, nice finds!

Wow, Tom, that's a good day fishing for early G&L's!
Looks like an extra mini-toggle on the control plate of the F-100 - something to do with the pre-amp?
Pretty colors on the fretboard, and some of that "black splatter" dot effect i see on mine, perhaps peculiar to ebony?
Looks like you've discovered the "missing link" in bridges between MM and G&L.
Beautiful F-100!
Broadcaster is a looker as well. If only 690 broadcasters were made, I presume the SN's were non-sequential.
Congratulations, nice finds!

Thanks John and others, it is quite a nice example. Have not had time to play with it too much at all yet. I still have not re-strung it. While testing the electronics though, the additional white three position mini toggle switches between active and passive electronics. There is also a position that adds bass or tremble and a third that just does treble boost. The other switches are the usual in\out of phase, coil split and pickup selector. I have never had an active guitar so it will take a bit of fun and time to figure it all out.

As far as the Broadcasters go, yes, they only made 869 of them, not 690, but ordered many more serial numbered neck plates. They were not made in sequence so there are numbers above 869. If you check the registry you will see some serial numbers in the 1000's range but not too many.

Thanks all,

Tom

Craig, about your comment that the neck pocket says "P.X. Gonar" I thought it was a poorly written, because it it on wood, "P.X. Guitar". What do you think?

Also, what wood do you think this is? The grain on the body looks like Ash but the neck pocket resembles Mahogany a bit. I listed it in the registry as Ash for now and the color being Two Tone Sunburst Nitrocellulose Lacquer.

Thanks,

Tom

Craig, about your comment that the neck pocket says "P.X. Gonar" I thought it was a poorly written, because it it on wood, "P.X. Guitar". What do you think?

Also, what wood do you think this is? The grain on the body looks like Ash but the neck pocket resembles Mahogany a bit. I listed it in the registry as Ash for now and the color being Two Tone Sunburst Nitrocellulose Lacquer.

Thanks,

Tom

I originally thought it was "P.X. Guitar" but after looking at it for awhile it looks like "P.X. Gonar" but maybe the photo is distorting it.
If it really is "P.X. Guitar", that would support it being a "Prototype".

I think the body wood is Swamp Ash. The finish is Tobacco Sunburst. Two-tone sunburst has a black outer burst and to my knowledge, Two-tone Sunburst was not a Leo-era color.
It first came out in 2001.

Craig, about your comment that the neck pocket says "P.X. Gonar" I thought it was a poorly written, because it it on wood, "P.X. Guitar". What do you think?

Also, what wood do you think this is? The grain on the body looks like Ash but the neck pocket resembles Mahogany a bit. I listed it in the registry as Ash for now and the color being Two Tone Sunburst Nitrocellulose Lacquer.

Thanks,

Tom

I originally thought it was "P.X. Guitar" but after looking at it for awhile it looks like "P.X. Gonar" but maybe the photo is distorting it.
If it really is "P.X. Guitar", that would support it being a "Prototype".

I think the body wood is Swamp Ash. The finish is Tobacco Sunburst. Two-tone sunburst has a black outer burst and to my knowledge, Two-tone Sunburst was not a Leo-era color.
It first came out in 2001.

Yes, I am hoping that someone knowledgable in these things sees this posts and either identifies P.Z. Goner or that they used the P.X. to designate a prototype. I have looked at and hyper magnified the writing and it does look more like Guitar than Gonar.

As for the finish, at first I was going to list it as Tobacco Sunburst but then saw the Two Tone Sunburst Nitrocellulose Lacquer listed and it is Nitro for sure. I will change it in the registry. If Fred does chime in he may have a different story but I'll go with that for now. Either way it's a way cool guitar. It would be nice to compile a data base with pictures of all the known finishes. There is a lot of that for BBE era colors but not much for the early days.

Tom

Craig, about your comment that the neck pocket says "P.X. Gonar" I thought it was a poorly written, because it it on wood, "P.X. Guitar". What do you think?

Also, what wood do you think this is? The grain on the body looks like Ash but the neck pocket resembles Mahogany a bit. I listed it in the registry as Ash for now and the color being Two Tone Sunburst Nitrocellulose Lacquer.

Thanks,

Tom

I originally thought it was "P.X. Guitar" but after looking at it for awhile it looks like "P.X. Gonar" but maybe the photo is distorting it.
If it really is "P.X. Guitar", that would support it being a "Prototype".

I think the body wood is Swamp Ash. The finish is Tobacco Sunburst. Two-tone sunburst has a black outer burst and to my knowledge, Two-tone Sunburst was not a Leo-era color.
It first came out in 2001.

Yes, I am hoping that someone knowledgable in these things sees this posts and either identifies P.Z. Goner or that they used the P.X. to designate a prototype. I have looked at and hyper magnified the writing and it does look more like Guitar than Gonar.

As for the finish, at first I was going to list it as Tobacco Sunburst but then saw the Two Tone Sunburst Nitrocellulose Lacquer listed and it is Nitro for sure. I will change it in the registry. If Fred does chime in he may have a different story but I'll go with that for now. Either way it's a way cool guitar. It would be nice to compile a data base with pictures of all the known finishes. There is a lot of that for BBE era colors but not much for the early days.

Tom

Well, another way of looking at it maybe:

"P.X.
F-100
#1"

As those three lines of text seem to be written by the same person (but I am no handwriting expert). The "Gonar or Guitar" text is smaller in size.

The "Two-Tone Sunburst Nitrocellulose Lacquer" listing in the Registry was for one of the Rustic Series colors.

Why don't you reach out to Fred, Gabe, and Larry. I had included links to each one's profile which has a EM link to use in a previous post.

Hey Craig,

I have PM'd Larry and Fred but the page of the link to Gabe does not have a PM button on it. At least not that I could see. It is his ESI page.

And yes, the P.X. F-100 #1 look to be written by the same person and I assume though that the #1 is the neck, not the first F-100, that would be too much. The neck has the 3 stamp with the circle around it but I understand that to be the mark of the person who made the neck not that it;s a #3 neck. Even what is written on the neck is odd because it looks like Red Body but that does not make sense on a TSB body. Maybe they switched it after marking it for a red guitar?

Tom

Hey Craig,

I have PM'd Larry and Fred but the page of the link to Gabe does not have a PM button on it. At least not that I could see. It is his ESI page.

And yes, the P.X. F-100 #1 look to be written by the same person and I assume though that the #1 is the neck, not the first F-100, that would be too much. The neck has the 3 stamp with the circle around it but I understand that to be the mark of the person who made the neck not that it;s a #3 neck. Even what is written on the neck is odd because it looks like Red Body but that does not make sense on a TSB body. Maybe they switched it after marking it for a red guitar?

Tom

Try EM'ing them, that way they don't have to login to get your message. Fred and Gabe have not logged in for a year or two. Larry lasted visited in March of this year.

Regarding the #1, your guitar is a Series II, so it would have a #2 (7.5" radius) neck.

BTW, Leo had submitted a patent for this hardtail bridge on March 6, 1978 and was granted the patent on Sept. 9, 1980, see: D256804.
The updated Saddle-Lock bridge patent request was submitted on May 26, 1981 and the patent was issued on June 21, 1983, see: D269440.

Hope you can connect with someone who can shed some more light on this guitar.

I agree that what looked like GONAR (that should be a model name, a guitar will balls ),
is GUITAR, #1 probably means one of the , if not the first ... (just guessin still)

The signed dates from Steve and Tom are pretty darn early, JAN 16 and 17th 1980 !!
The neck is dated April so I could see how the body finish decision might have changed.

Maybe "P.X. guitar" means something like "Project X guitar" or "prototype X guitar". These days are from the very early days of G&L! As far as for the body, I think it's Swamp Ash.

Again, great stuff Tom. I hope you get that shipping box. After all, that's what they used in their sales blurb, so they should!

- Jos

Elwood,

I would be amazed, and honored, if this was the first F-100 made, or at lease "officially" made. That thought blows my mind. Would be nice though. The dates are very early and there are none close to them in the registry for any F-100. I think there are only two registered F-100 E's in the registry dated in 1980. Most of the early ones are April 1980 or later.

Jos,
What you say is quite possible, there is no telling what nomenclature they used at the beginning and they could have just grabbed the first neck in the pile that fit the bill regardless of what it said.

I have contacted the seller and plan on speaking with him tomorrow. I am sure that if the prototype labeled box exists he will ship it to me, we have become fairly good friends over the last several months.

Craig, I will try the EM thing instead of PM.

Tom

Congratulations Tom! Nice F-100 for the collection. If I remember correctly, Jeff Gruwell claimed to have a Candy Apple Red F-100 made on the first day of production (not necessarily the first made) that was used on the ad slick for the F-100. I believe he shared that fact in the G&L Facebook group. He is on here as JefF-100, but I don't think he is as active here as FB. You might want to check with Jeff for F-100 info.

Chip

Congratulations Tom! Nice F-100 for the collection. If I remember correctly, Jeff Gruwell claimed to have a Candy Apple Red F-100 made on the first day of production (not necessarily the first made) that was used on the ad slick for the F-100. I believe he shared that fact in the G&L Facebook group. He is on here as JefF-100, but I don't think he is as active here as FB. You might want to check with Jeff for F-100 info.

Chip

Hey Chip,

I checked Jeff's profile and registered collection and do not see a CAR F-100. He does seem to have a few F-100s but no early dates that would suggest a very early model.

I am still hoping to hear from some of the old school experts on this guitar and hope they have some insight.

Tom

Tom, I have a little new info for you (and all).
The official log book wasn't yet formed in January 1980, so designations and dates before April have to be inferred
from any given clues.
Steve Reed and Lloyd Chewning would have assembled the guitar, and John Quarterman (JPQ) would have been shooting the finish.
There is most likely some supervision and/or assembly done by George Fullerton as well.
The machining with serial numbers weren't ramped up in the beginning of the year so that explains the blank bridge.

It surely was an exciting time in the early months of 1980 at G&L , and you definitely have a rare fruit born from that time.

Congrats again.
Elwood

Tom, I have a little new info for you (and all).
The official log book wasn't yet formed in January 1980, so designations and dates before April have to be inferred
from any given clues.
Steve Reed and Lloyd Chewning would have assembled the guitar, and John Quarterman (JPQ) would have been shooting the finish.
There is most likely some supervision and/or assembly done by George Fullerton as well.
The machining with serial numbers weren't ramped up in the beginning of the year so that explains the blank bridge.

It surely was an exciting time in the early months of 1980 at G&L , and you definitely have a rare fruit born from that time.

Congrats again.
Elwood

Thanks for the intel Elwood. It certainly makes sense. I have not seen any F-100s without a stamped Bridge or Neck Plate but it is definitely the Saddle Lock as we know it today minus three mounting screws at least. I think I have another guitar that used to belong to Loyd Chewning, Can't remember but I'll look it up. I will have to check my books but I don't remember a mention of the name Steve Reed but I am sure you are correct. I'll look that up too because it would not have registered when I read the two books I have. It's funny because Paul Bechtold lists the first F-100 as #G000518 Completed on August 29th, 1980 that was CAR. Yet, there are examples in the registry as early as April 1980. Did Paul ever write the second version of his book?

Have you ever seen any other example with a "P.X." marked in the neck cavity?

Thanks again,

Tom

Did Paul ever write the second version of his book?

Have you ever seen any other example with a "P.X." marked in the neck cavity?

Thanks again,

Tom

I think there was an abridged edition (I've never read it), I've heard there was a few disputed facts from
folks here on the discussion board. Maybe someone here can remember what the deal was.
I haven't seen the designation P.x. before.
KenC had very low serial # F-100. I have a sort of low # F-100 husk (body and neck),
I'll have to check the dates and get them in the registry, I might have time to do that soon.

Cheers,

[Craig]

Did Paul ever write the second version of his book?

Have you ever seen any other example with a "P.X." marked in the neck cavity?

Thanks again,

Tom

I think there was an abridged edition (I've never read it), I've heard there was a few disputed facts from
folks here on the discussion board. Maybe someone here can remember what the deal was.
I haven't seen the designation P.x. before.
KenC had very low serial # F-100. I have a sort of low # F-100 husk (body and neck),
I'll have to check the dates and get them in the registry, I might have time to do that soon.

Cheers,

AFAIK, Paul B. did not complete another edition, even thought he said he was working on one and some people had sent him money to order one. I know Dean Coy was one of them, but he never
receive it nor any return of money he sent to him.

Remember, that low serial numbers do not indicate order of build, especially early on. See: How do I determine an instrument's age?.
you do need to get the neck and body dates to determine when it was built.

I do think Tom's guitar is a prototype. Remember, this is not the first company that Leo and George started, and I don't think Dale would be selling production instruments without serial numbers.

Just my $0.02.

Last edited by Craig on Tue Nov 15, 2016 10:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: fixed link

A late congratulations on your two new ( used ) G&L's. I was in Gruhn's last Wednesday and I was hoping to checkout those two guitars. It would have been my first time seeing, let alone playing a Broadcaster and an F-100. That was it, there were no others G&L's in the shop. On second thought, you probably saved me ALOT of grief from my wife. I have a feeling I would have been all over that Broadcaster. They also have a 1960 Les Paul for $275,000. I passed .

A late congratulations on your two new ( used ) G&L's. I was in Gruhn's last Wednesday and I was hoping to checkout those two guitars. It would have been my first time seeing, let alone playing a Broadcaster and an F-100. That was it, there were no others G&L's in the shop. On second thought, you probably saved me ALOT of grief from my wife. I have a feeling I would have been all over that Broadcaster. They also have a 1960 Les Paul for $275,000. I passed .

Thanks GL, I was hesitant at first but they dropped the price a lot for buying them both together. Sorry I snatched them up before you had a chance to play them. The Broadcaster was alright for playing but the F-100 had rusty strings and needs some setup. I'm not sure if I will spend too much time on it though, it's sorting out to be quite a bit of a rarity and I might just leave it alone. Although I will likely set it up so I can play it and test out all the sounds it will offer up. That's a lot of money for a LP that may not even sound that good...

Tom

Although I will likely set it up so I can play it and test out all the sounds it will offer up.

I think it's a good idea to exercise the pots and fill that wood with vibrations occasionally.
Like taking an old car out on sunny Sunday drives, as long as you stay on the road

While testing the electronics though, the additional white three position mini toggle switches between active and passive electronics.

I have an early G&L ad that shows an F-100E. It has that same switch.

KenC had very low serial # F-100.

Mine was G000503, which is the lowest production serial number that's been registered (as of when I traded it away two years back or so). I'm not sure what the production log showed, but the date stamps were Sept and Oct 1980, IIRC.

Ken

While testing the electronics though, the additional white three position mini toggle switches between active and passive electronics.

I have an early G&L ad that shows an F-100E. It has that same switch.

KenC had very low serial # F-100.

Mine was G000503, which is the lowest production serial number that's been registered (as of when I traded it away two years back or so). I'm not sure what the production log showed, but the date stamps were Sept and Oct 1980, IIRC.

Ken

So, was that one with the same switch active electronics?

I have seen early 1980 dated F-100s (April and later) with serial numbers in the low 500s as well as 1000 or even 3000 oddly enough. So it's hard to tell. Obviously yours was not the third guitar made, nor the 503rd one. I searched the registry for numbers G000001 thru G001000 and found very few (three I think) below 500 and all of the 96 instruments that came up were F-100s except for # 2 and 15 both Interceptors, and #49 a George Fullerton Sig. #87 is a bridge only, there is a legacy, an SC-2 and an SC-3 each above 500.

So it's kind of an effort sorting out dates versus serial numbers but searching around is fun. BTW, your #503 is no longer registered

Tom

Long, long update on this guitar: Well, after waiting and waiting for Gruhn's to send me the box, it finally arrived the other day. It was not a matter of them deliberately delaying shipping it, they were trying to locate me a particular, or suitable, case as part of the deal (long story) but had not found anything they thought suitable and just sent the box. It's odd to get excited about receiving an empty box but it's a way cool relic from the past. It's a 35 year old box.

I still have not heard from anyone such as Larry or Gabe but will perhaps contact one of them and see what he knows, if anything. You never know, maybe Gabe could use pics of this guitar for his book,assuming he is writing one.

So, here it is in all it's splendiferous glory.



Tom

Good to hear about the box, I was thinking about that coveted cardboard just this morning...I would have been miffed if it ended up being recycled

For the record, my previous post relays what Gabe had to share when I let him know about your purchase.

Tom, I have a little new info for you (and all)....

Cheers!
Elwood

The box says w / vib. which I would take to mean "With vibrato", but the guitar has a saddle lock bridge. Kind of interesting.

Nice Tom! Good to have the "full package"

- Jos

One of the few places where nobody even questions the joy of receiving a 35 year old empty cardboard box.

Also, as an FYI, I have spoken with a well established expert in these things and was told that the TOM K inscribed in the neck pocket is referring to Tom Kjellin who apparently worked in the final assembly department at the time. He was also a good guitar player from what I was told. Any of you guys heard of him associated with G&L?

Tom

Hey Tom,

Although this thread is a bit old, I wanted to bring up something you might already be aware of, but maybe not. This very guitar is the one featured in G&L's 1980 catalog:

The guitar is easily recognizable die to its extra switch and the wood figure.

I was reminded of this fact die to the current discussion elsewhere of the L-2000 prototype which, beyond the slightly different position of the pups, also has a 4th mini-toggle switch just like your F-100.

- Jos

Hey Tom,

Although this thread is a bit old, I wanted to bring up something you might already be aware of, but maybe not. This very guitar is the one featured in G&L's 1980 catalog:

The guitar is easily recognizable die to its extra switch and the wood figure.

I was reminded of this fact die to the current discussion elsewhere of the L-2000 prototype which, beyond the slightly different position of the pups, also has a 4th mini-toggle switch just like your F-100.

- Jos

Yes, Jos, I think it was discussed in this post or another one and Craig asked if anyone had a higher rez photo of the catalog page. He had commented that it was in fact the only place he had seen an F-100 with four switches and you provided this very page.

It's funny cause there was an F-100 on Reverb that the seller claimed had a 1979 date stamp. I politely explained that this would be highly un likely and to please take the neck off again and check. It did turn out to be a Sept. 1980 vintage and he re-wrote the auction page. It's a nice guitar and he was only asking $790 for it. I advised him to raise the price.

Tom