New member seeking MusicMan Sabre I info

[Craig]

Hi Craig, I am new to this site and it may not contain what i am looking for. I have a guitar bby Leo, but not a G&L!! I am a pro musician living in rural devon in the uk and was down at my local dump dropping of some trash, and there was an old Music Man sabre 1!!! I bought it and am loving ot back to the stage, but want to know where i can find out some defifnitive history about these pre G & L guitars by Leo. I know that the ernie ball music man guitars are totally different (not a great fan of those) and they dont really have any info on them. I thought that there might be some info from you guys.
many thanks
fsharpminor

Last edited by Craig on Tue May 04, 2010 10:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: moved from another forum and re-titled

[Craig]

There is actually a fair amount of pre-Ernie Ball MusicMan knowledge at the EBMM site. Many of the Knuckleheads are owners of the Leo-era guitars & basses, so don't be afraid to ask. Just avoid ANY discussion of repairs or ANYTHING that could even remotely be construed as negative, not matter how far a reach it might be. And for God's sake, don't PM Big Poppa.

Our own GGJaguar is also a wealth of knowledge of things Leo.

Ken...

Last edited by Craig on Tue May 04, 2010 10:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: moved with original post and re-titled

The following is a reply I got from BoogieBill regarding Leo-era Musicman. Great info !

Bills message :
Two guitars, the StringRay was the first. I bought my first Sabre II late '78-early '79, I think. These are a much better guitar than the Sting Ray. Here's what I can tell you about the Sabre.

The "I" (Roman numeral one) designates a guitar with a 12" radius and a medium jumbo fret; while the II models have a 7.25" radius neck and vintage frets. Both versions could be had with maple or rosewood boards. They have a bullet truss rod nut, and 3-bolt necks with a micro-tilt adjustment.

The bodies are similar to a Strat, though slightly elongated, and narrower. Some might think them ugly--I don't. They are very comfortable to play. I believe the bodies on mine are poplar; and I believe ash was an option. I have seen them in white, natural, black, silver, and 3-color burst; there may have been a walnut color, but I don't ever recall seeing one.

The machines are Schallers with a V-tapered split-post. The tapered post naturally winds the string down close to the headstock. The strap buttons are of the design currently used on G&Ls. A very superior design to the buttons used by Fender and Gibson. I mention this simply because, to me--it really indicates that Leo was LISTENING to what the musicians wanted changed in some of his earlier designs. They really do work better--no strap locks needed.

The Sabre bridge is a really unique design, a forerunner of the G&L Saddle Lock. The individual saddles are cylinders--which quite ingeniously address several known issues with the vintage saddle design.

The pickups are low-impedance humbuckers; and the neck pickup is of different dimensions than the bridge pickup. They are powered by an active, buffered, low-impedance pre-amp--you can run 100' of cable and 36 effects with no signal loss. The 9V battery has a conveniently accessible compartment on the back with a chromed cover. Controls included a 3-way blade switch, a BRITE switch, ACTIVE TREBLE and BASS; and a PHASE switch--unique in that it gives you both pickups out-of-phase, no matter the position of the selector switch.

Overall, the tonality of the guitars is bright. I think of them as a Super Tele, rather than a Strat replacement. The active controls do provide a lot of versatility--you can get some good twang from the bridge, and singing "woman tone" from the neck pickup. The pickups have typical Fender CLARITY; so the bridge pickup articulates very well when used with heavy overdrive. Actual output is about the same as a normal 2HB guitar. The preamp is quiet. I usually used mine with full TREBLE and the BASS at 5--and cut my amp's Treble to taste. This reduces noise from the amp, like a Dolby System in a cassette deck.

One of the big users of the Music Man guitars was the band "Alabama". Buddy Merrill (Lawrence Welk) used a Sabre; and I believe Jerry Reed and Carl Perkins used them as well.

The Sting Ray is not as refined as the Sabre, IMO--I particularly dislike the four-way rotary pickup selector switch on the Sting Ray.

But the Sabre in my mind really is Leo's high-water mark. I think it is one of the most innovative guitars of its time--from an ERA of innovation. Yet, it has its roots firmly in the past--it still feels like a Fender. With G&L, Leo would create the DF Vibrato, and eschew the low-impedance pickups and preamps in favor of the MFD pickups--but he would never again bring a guitar to market with as many innovative new features as he did with the Sabre.

In retropect, I think it's a shame that Music Man folded, and the production of these guitars ceased. I don't really think anyone has of yet explored the full potential of on-board electronics--though perhaps one day all of us will own Variax guitars or Roland V-Guitars. I've long dreamed of a Sabre with a preamp containing a compressor; or perhaps a Mid-Range Boost circuit ala Fender's TBX that would bring a thicker tone to the Sabre.

The other "flaw" if you will--he brought the guitar to market without a vibrato option--just when the Floyd Rose/Super Strat phenomenon was hitting full stride.

As to basses, they had the Sting Ray, a Sabre model, and then the Cutlass. I have two Sabre IIs, and I think of the second one as my "Cutlass" prototype. I had a Music Man Sabre bridge pickup added to the middle position of this guitar, along with a 5-way switch. Is this the guitar that would have been brought to market had not G&L been created? I don't know, but it is one hell of a guitar!

Bill

Wow! What a really great post! Extremely well written! The guy that wrote that must be a GENIUS!

LOL!!!!

I LOVE it when somebody quotes me! Thanks for the honor!

Bill

I LOVE it when somebody quotes me! Thanks for the honor!

Very cool, Bill. I dream to someday have that level of recognition. I've already got the notoriety.

And Meat candy.

Ken,,,

an old post from gabe




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Answers


GPD on December 07, 2005 at 09:56:43:


ATTN: Gabe--Music Man Questions posted by BoogieBill on December 07, 2005 at 04:07:57:



: I've got a couple of questions about Music Man.

OK...I'll see what I can do.

: I understand that Leo sold Fender because of illness; that he was very ill and not expected to live. Do you know the exact nature of Leo's illness?

In Leo's own words it was a "strep infection centered in his sinus" that wouldn't go away. He basically would get strep throat repeatedly...went on for more than a decade so I'm told.

: Tom Wheeler formed Music Man. Leo recovered, formed CLF Research. Which came first? (I somehow got the impression that Music Man was started without Leo, before CLF came into being.)
Not Tom Wheeler...he's an author and magazine writer...you mean Tommy Walker. Don't be fooled into believing that Music Man wasn't Leo's baby...because in all honesty it very much was. Leo financed the entire company and this is very much a fact. It was formed by Leo, Tommy Walker and Forrest White though at the time Tommy and Forrest got top billing due to Leo's situation with CBS.

Leo did all sorts of things once he finally recovered from his chronic strep problems...including designing boats, designing guitar pieces and parts (for CBS) and of course, real estate...commercial style!!! CLF was set up for R&D purposes and later became the source for the Music Man instruments that appeared in 1976.

: What was the nature of the work that Leo did for Music Man? Was Leo an integral part of that company? Was he financially backing it? Or was Wheeler contracting CLF Research for the production of the guitars and basses?
The nature was that Leo financed the entire enchilada!!! He was approached by Tommy Walker for the start up venture. Leo suggested Forrest get involved too...and Forrest jumped at the chance...though Tommy and Forrest never could see eye to eye.

Leo did not get too involved in the Music Man circuit designs though later he did work on a couple of circuits. The Op-Amp was available at this time and Leo wasn't boned up on solid state circuitry at the time Music Man was formed though Tommy walker was very knowledgeable regarding Op-Amp's and solid state designs in general.

Leo took what he learned during the early to mid 70's and applied it to the solid state Music Man pre-amp circuits though I suspect Tommy had a lot to do with these designs early on as did a couple of other EE's that worked at Music Man back in the day. I knew Tommy while he was still living and have zero doubts that he was heavily involved in the design of the Music Man brand guitars...especially the circuits.

: Were the Music Man amps designed by Wheeler, or by Leo? How much hands on work was Leo actually doing with the amps?
I already answered this...Tommy Walker had a lot to do with the their designs and Forrest White their construction (which is superb...better than pre-CBS Fender actually)...Leo was involved to a lesser degree but there were other EE's involved as well.

: One side question: Do you know much about the relationship between Leo and former Fender Sales Manager Don Randall, and his company, Randall Amplifiers?

Sure...it was a strained relationship dating back to the late 40's/early 50's though Don Randall was a huge factor in helping Leo Fender's achieve fame, fortune. I think you are confused in thinking that Don was a "Sales Manager" for Fender...remember, pre-CBS Fender was not a single company with different folks filling in specific positions or roles. It was two seperate companies...Don did not work for Leo Fender...Leo was not the big boss so to speak.

Remember, it was Don and his organization that were out there peddling the Fender products back in the day and it was largely Don Randall that orchestrated the brilliant 13 million dollar deal with CBS...an unheard of amount in those days.

I have met and spoken with Don...he's still alive though not in the best of health these days. Don as and still is highly regarded in the industry. He was the consumate professional and an incredibly intelligent. CBS brass was in awe of him...and for good reason.

Today, few folks realize how critical he and Forrest White really were to the Leo Fender story. Leo gets all the accolades...for which he certainly is worthy but it was really the efforts of Forrest and Don that made the company into the giant it would become.

In all reality, without Forrest White, Leo's manufacturing capabilities would never have expanded and the quality of the Fender products would never have reached the level they did during the pre-CBS era. Without Don...the Fender products would never have made it to market on a large scale and the CBS deal would never have taken place.

There are certainly a lot of other role players in the Leo Fender story...George Fullerton and Dale Hyatt included...but it really was the collective efforts of Leo, Forrest and Don Randall that made the Fender name legendary