Bloodied Fingers was right......again.....dammit

During Map70's post on replacing pots in his Legacy Tribute, the discussion morphed into capacitors somehow. Bloodied Fingers chimed in with the fact that capacitor type didn't matter in the guitar or stomp pedal, which was debated.

I looked at his logic and felt stupid. Everything the cap does in a guitar and pedal goes right out the ground wire to tone heaven somewhere. I thought "why in the hell did I spend this money on my pedals Mr. Robert Keeley"?!

It was posted paper in oil caps are more expensive at about $4 each, but well worth the extra money in tone. I stated that ceramic caps sound terriible. In retrospect, I believe the tiime I noticed that huge difference was in the amp and not the guitar. So, I'm an idiot.

Being an idiot, I decided to experiment with one of my pedals to see if different type caps sounded different at all. Being a brilliant scientist, I didn't choose just any pedal, no sir. I got my vintage OD-1 out. So, I looked into my magical grab bag of capacitors to see what I had that would match values. Sure enough, I had .047's in oil and ceramic to try out in the first stage. It has a mylar or poly or whatever the hell it is in it already.

My man Mike at the ready with guitar in hand, we tried the OD-1 pedal stock, then tried the other two caps playing the exact same riffs and same settings each time. I did this several times mixing up the caps so he couldn't cheat. I asked if he heard anything different. He said no and I agreed as I heard no difference at all. So, I tricked him and put in an .022. Yep, difference for sure.

Now I wanna take all my pedals apart, especially the boutique ones to find out what's in there. My Keeley BD-2 does sound different from stock for sure with the Phat switch. Robert told me why when I bought it from him at the Dallas show but I don't remember the details.

Finally, I Googled prices. Holy smokes, the PIO cap for the .047uF value was between $14 and $20!! Nope. Orange Drops for everybody on me!! Yay!

Being a brilliant scientist, next week I think I'll take apart my grandmother's old antique clock.

Have some fun today,

Zippy

Zippy, that is my kind of testing! I think that what you have reported is often the case but the old marketing snake oil is a good way to make money. The frequencies respond to capacitance and not the material the capacitor is made from. The material it is made from may affect the longevity but that is about it. Often when people claim big differences after changing a cap but the capacitance of the cap they replaced may have been different due to tolerance to make the difference in sound. Resistors are no different. A bunch are made and measured. The ones less than 5% tolerance are marked as such and are more expensive. We are in a severe cold snap in Minnesota so our minds may be affected, but I agree with you. It is like my recording base line. If it sounds really good, it is. I have had on ongoing discussion about reverb with a friend. Reverb is splitting the signal, adding a delay, often with a spring, to part of the signal and mixing it again. Very simple. My friend thinks that I should buy a fancy reverb unit for my recording gear. I explained to him that I can duplicate a track and delay it to whatever I want. He said,"thats not reverb". What do you say. Why add reverb to pristine vocals? Makes for good discussions. Now if I wanted to color my reverb, that is anther story. Reminds me of when I bought a fancy cap for my John Petrucci. I installed it and I could not hear a difference. Maybe someone else could have. I would have felt better if I could have as It was a waste my money. Boy, this makes great discussions during cold days like this when we may be touched a bit. Could we be too old to make scientific evaluations???? -- Darwin

Darwin,
Yes, we may be too old for this, that's why I had my 20's something guitarist step in with me. I've tinnitus and hear only up to about 11.5Khz according to my last test. Maybe I should have turned it down like they told me in the old days!

You know, this was really fun and you can't even tell on my pedal. Like I said, I brought Mike in to play guitar and for his young ears. He's currently trying to find "his tone", so capacitor experiments are right up his alley and I enjoy teaching him the 3 or 4 things I know. I took apart a few more pedals for grins just to see what's in there. My buddy that passed had just given me an old MXR EVH Phase 90 pedal. I wondered why this little dude was so heavy with no battery. Nothing fun inside really except one trim control to change stuff a bit. It's just got a heavy, solid casing. Wondering about wah potentiometers and their brethren now. My RMC3LE wah pedal may be in trouble. Hmmmmm......

Have some fun today,

Zippy

wait, I was right again?

When was I right the first time? lol.. I gotta tell my wife about this

Geez, my post sparked some debate... I too try to use specialty stuff, but I have to say I think the standard ceramic stuff is probably fine.. The stuff they used back then maybe just had to do with what they had on hand, so everyone thinks that is why the stuff sounded better... just like finish (poly or nitro), how much does it really contribute?? They had Nitro back in the early days, so that is what they used... If they had poly then would everyone want poly??

I think a good amp and some solid guitar hardware plus some nice sounding wood (sustain!!!!) on a guitar play much more of a role than that little cap.

I do think Tubes are better than modelling, at least so far..But the Kemper does sound great...

Mark

Last edited by MAP70 on Tue Jan 07, 2014 9:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Reverb is splitting the signal, adding a delay, often with a spring, to part of the signal and mixing it again. Very simple. My friend thinks that I should buy a fancy reverb unit for my recording gear. I explained to him that I can duplicate a track and delay it to whatever I want. He said,"thats not reverb". What do you say. Why add reverb to pristine vocals? Makes for good discussions. Now if I wanted to color my reverb, that is anther story. Reminds me of when I bought a fancy cap for my John Petrucci. I installed it and I could not hear a difference. Maybe someone else could have. I would have felt better if I could have as It was a waste my money. Boy, this makes great discussions during cold days like this when we may be touched a bit. Could we be too old to make scientific evaluations???? -- Darwin

I had a similar epiphany with delay, I tried to find a great analog delay (I tried a bunch of them, including the two timer)... but when I finally grabbed a TC Flashback X4, I realized I LIKE digital delay better than analog!! Pissed me off, but it is what it is!! LOL

Mark

Darwin,
Yes, we may be too old for this, that's why I had my 20's something guitarist step in with me. I've tinnitus and hear only up to about 11.5Khz according to my last test. Maybe I should have turned it down like they told me in the old days!

You know, this was really fun and you can't even tell on my pedal. Like I said, I brought Mike in to play guitar and for his young ears. He's currently trying to find "his tone", so capacitor experiments are right up his alley and I enjoy teaching him the 3 or 4 things I know. I took apart a few more pedals for grins just to see what's in there. My buddy that passed had just given me an old MXR EVH Phase 90 pedal. I wondered why this little dude was so heavy with no battery. Nothing fun inside really except one trim control to change stuff a bit. It's just got a heavy, solid casing. Wondering about wah potentiometers and their brethren now. My RMC3LE wah pedal may be in trouble. Hmmmmm......

Have some fun today,

Zippy

It's fun to find out that the older pedals don't have any magic.. could it be the recording techniques and guitar player back then that made it sound better??? hmmm

I think the inductors in Wah's do make a difference.. I am not a big fan of the CryBaby.. I am more of a Vox guy, but my BBE is actually very nice sounding...

Mark

wait, I was right again?

When was I right the first time? lol.. I gotta tell my wife about this

My wife would never believe I was right about anything!!

Mark

I think a good amp and some solid guitar hardware plus some nice sounding wood (sustain!!!!) on a guitar play much more of a role than that little cap.

I do think Tubes are better than modelling, at least so far..But the Kemper does sound great...

Mark

Most limitations to the sound produced by my equipment is due to PEBGAS*. I have a long way to go before worrying about woods, caps or the name brand on my resistors. Have you heard those Blackstar ID series? Those sound pretty good to me, if my amp ever dies I could definitely see one of those in my future.


*PEBGAS - Problem Exists Between Guitar And Strap

PEBGAS, that's a new one of me but it fits me so perfectly.

A buddy of mine is an electrical engineer, guitar player, and pedal nut. He is all about buying a cheap or base model pedal, then doing his magic and making it sound as he wants. I do that to a much lesser extent. Shoot, nearly everything I own is point to point wiring. He had me going over schematics and Op Amp stuff. I should never have got him started because now he's going to want to mod everything.

Some people freak when I mess around with old pedals like that, but who cares. It's a pedal. I don't even use it really. I prefer my modded BD-2. I bought it from Robert Keeley at a Dallas Guitar Show 11 or 12 years ago and I like the sound better. Maybe I'll take that apart and see what that "Phat" button is all about.

On the reverb and all that. Back in the days when I was in recording studios and production rooms, we always recorded vocals dry. Reverb, delay, doubler, and whatever else was always added later so it could be better controlled. All 3 of my bigger amps have spring reverbs in them. The little guys don't but suits me just fine. I don't know about making your own reverb since mine have always had it in back of the cabinet.

On the delay, you know, I like digital delay better too usually. I have one built into the Line 6 rack mount thing I have but we still use the old Echoplex around here for some reason. It looks cool is the main reason. Hell, when the kids come over, I turn on my Conn ST-6 strobe tuner and pretend to use it, all while hiding my Peterson under the table.

Have your wives read this post. They'll be proud.

Zippy

I think a good amp and some solid guitar hardware plus some nice sounding wood (sustain!!!!) on a guitar play much more of a role than that little cap.

I do think Tubes are better than modelling, at least so far..But the Kemper does sound great...

Mark

Most limitations to the sound produced by my equipment is due to PEBGAS*. I have a long way to go before worrying about woods, caps or the name brand on my resistors. Have you heard those Blackstar ID series? Those sound pretty good to me, if my amp ever dies I could definitely see one of those in my future.


*PEBGAS - Problem Exists Between Guitar And Strap

I like PEBGAS... Lol

I tried the Blackstar stuff but I never played the Id series.. I find the gain channel to be a bit sterile... I was looking into into a new Marshall jvm series.. They sound pretty decent.. I am waiting for the Jet City Flex.... But right now I need to tame my pedal board and get one. Of those midi loop switchers..

Mark

*PEBGAS - Problem Exists Between Guitar And Strap

Ha! You must have history in tech support. I haven't thought of this acronym for a while now--when I used to work for AT&T installing and maintaining DSL we used the term PEBKAC errors--Problem Exists Between Keyboard And Chair.

On the reverb and all that. Back in the days when I was in recording studios and production rooms, we always recorded vocals dry. Reverb, delay, doubler, and whatever else was always added later so it could be better controlled. All 3 of my bigger amps have spring reverbs in them. The little guys don't but suits me just fine. I don't know about making your own reverb since mine have always had it in back of the cabinet.

I've just finished my first partscaster, I think my next project is going to be a reverb tank. My current amp has no reverb. While I'm skeptical of all guitar-snake-oil stuff I can't find an alternative that sounds so good to me as a rattling box with springs in it.

*PEBGAS - Problem Exists Between Guitar And Strap

Ha! You must have history in tech support. I haven't thought of this acronym for a while now--when I used to work for AT&T installing and maintaining DSL we used the term PEBKAC errors--Problem Exists Between Keyboard And Chair.

Exactly what gave me the idea.

I've never had a job in tech support, but as the resident nerd in my 10 person company I "do" all the IT work so...

Being that this started as a bloodied_fingers compliment thread this isn't OT saying that this avatar guitar is gorgeous, not only the guitar but the way it has been photographed.

Being that this started as a bloodied_fingers compliment thread this isn't OT saying that this avatar guitar is gorgeous, not only the guitar but the way it has been photographed.

Thanks Salmon. That is my first ever guitar build. "just" a partscaster but I'm really liking it - so much that my G&L is on Craigslist now.

More photos here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/perryhargr ... 842887695/

That's a really nice guitar. Is that a Strat body? I saw the writing in the pocket but can't read it.

Did you paint it yourself? I'm thinking about painting my old Tele. You have one thing I don't.....patience. I'm too tightly wound for painting I think. We'll see after I install the 4 way switch.

Is that a Wilkinson tremolo? Does it drop right into a Strat body?

I need to build a parts caster for testing and general stuff.

Zippy

That's a really nice guitar. Is that a Strat body? I saw the writing in the pocket but can't read it.

Did you paint it yourself? I'm thinking about painting my old Tele. You have one thing I don't.....patience. I'm too tightly wound for painting I think. We'll see after I install the 4 way switch.

Is that a Wilkinson tremolo? Does it drop right into a Strat body?

I need to build a parts caster for testing and general stuff.

Zippy

It is a FMIC MIM body and I did not paint it.

It is a wilkinson trem (WVP2 SB, iirc) and dropped right in.

I have a thread chronicling build and full parts list here: http://www.strat-talk.com/forum/diy-str ... build.html

+edit+ and thank you for the compliments

Sonic Blue and Seafoam Green are my favorite Fender colors. I did a set up on a cheap Fender bullet that was an awesome kind of plum/dark blue thing. Very nice. That was from a couple of weeks back when I shot my mouth off stating I can make practically any guitar play decently. So, my guitar buddies brought me a guitar they got for $35.lol

It was fairly unplayable but pretty. It rocks now. Two days of work though so I'm not sure I really won that bet.

Zippy